Mordy, need help with vitamin c

Question:
 Renee suggested I contact you to ask you about vitamin c. Yesterday at the vet they xrayed Brutus' hips. thought there might be a problem. Luckily there was not. Anyway during the x ray reading the orthopedic vet came in and said I should not be giving Brutus(fila 3 month old 50 pounds) or Roxie( Rottie 8 years 130 lbs. on diet) vitamin c. It can cause kidney and liver damage over the course of a few years. I give them each 1 ester c a day.From what I have read and according to Renee you are the nutrition expert. Oh, they also said I should feed him sd because of the glucosamine in it. Not changing to that brand will stick with innova. But should I give Brutus glucosamine? I do Roxie because she is 8. Any help would be appreciated. Thank you

Answer:
Wow! I know I am not Mordy but I can help a bit. Vitamin C is water soluble so it doens't build up in the tissues or body, what isn't utilized is cleared out of the system. I have never heard of liver or kidney damage because of Vitamin C supplements. I feed my GSD 1,000 mg a day and he is fine and dandy. Not sure where your vet was trying to go with that. As for the glucosamine one would think it would be beneficial to a large breed dog, I personally don't add it to my dog's diet at this time but I know a lot of people who do and swear by it.

Answer:
yup, adrienne is correct on the vitamin C. its benefits have been widely proven but i have never heard anything about it being toxic or doing any organ damage.
that vet obviously doesn't know much about nutrition at all and just wants to push his science diet foods. you can politely point out to him next time that you could never supply enough glucosamine to your dog by just feeding supplemented dog food, since the amount is way too low to have any kind of a therapeutic effect.
giving glucosamine isn't a bad idea for large breed dogs, but you need a good quality supplement. glucosamine comes in different grades, and many pet-grade products contain the lower end of the quality range that isn't very absorbable. you would be better off buying a good quality human grade supplement (generic is fine) or sticking to a high-end pet product such as for example glycoflex made by vetri-science. if you shop around the internet, you will find much better deals than at pet stores. :)

Answer:
I knew I was right, grumpy old fart. He's not my vet anyway. And If I have any ortho problems he will not be treating my dogs, But since I give my dogs vitamin C hopefully I won't have any. Am I giving Brutus and Roxie enough vitamin C? And how much glucosamine should I give Brutus? BTW i told Renee I was going to take in the website for the Greatdane Lady.
to them at Brutus' next appt. She suggested I take yours also. Hope this is ok with you. BTW Happy Belated Birthday. Saw it was yesterday. Hope you had a good one.

Answer:
i'm not sure how much you are giving, since there are ester C tablets and caplets with varying amounts. 500mg seem to be the most common tho, so if that's what you are giving, it's fine. giving much more doesn't really help more and anything the body doesn't need is excreted anyway.
the amount of glucosamine you feed depends on the purity/quality - the better it is, the more the body can absorb, so you can give less overall. if you have a 99% pure product (glucosamine hydrochloride or sulfate), the doses are as follows:
* 25 to 50 pounds - 500mg per day
* 50 to 80 pounds - 1000mg per day
* 85+ pounds - 1500mg per day (2/3 of the amount given in the morning, 1/3 in the evening for better absorption of the larger amoount)
these are "maintenance" doses, for animals who are taking the supplement for acute problems (e.g. arthritis), often a higher dose is needed to have an effect.
one important thing about glucosamine is that it only really has a benefit if given consistently, since it has to build up in the joints. it often takes 1-2 months to see an effect in an animal for example suffering from arthritis, so the worst thing to do would be to give up because "it doesn't work" right away. (i know your dog doesn't have arthritis, i'm just adding this info for anyone who might come across this thread in the future by doing a search for vitamin C or glucosamine.)
you can get pretty good deals on human glucosamine supplements, for example NOW brand offers a 180 count bottle of 1000mg high quality glucosamine caplets for around $25 and you can find online deals for as low as $15 a bottle.
some pet-grade brands would require you to feed 1/2 to 1 ounce of powdered product every day, which is not economical at all. if you prefer a powdered product over tabs or caplets, NOW offers that as well, it supplies around 1600mg per 1/2 teaspoon.

Answer:
What is the other stuff used for dog and people joints? Condroitin or some such seems to be niggling at the back of my brain. And it has shark cartiledge in it???????? I used to have a memory, but can't recall where I last saw it, lol.

Answer:
What is the other stuff used for dog and people joints? Condroitin or some such seems to be niggling at the back of my brain. And it has shark cartiledge in it
There is a great supplement called Syn Flex which has Shark Cartiledge in it which contains 20% Chondroitin in it.
For myself I use a Horse Glucosamine product called GmC (I don't have the bottle here so I may have gotten that wrong. It contains Glucosamine HCL and Glucosamine Sulfate...myself I think it's very important to have both types of Glucosamine. It also contains Chondroitin Sulfate which also is VERY important for joint health. The supplment I give also contains Manganese Ascorbate which is very important when giving a dog Glucosamine as it helps the body absorb the Glucosamine...many human Glucosamine products do not contain Manganese...or you can use Vit C to help the dogs body to absorb it.
The most important factor of joint health is a good diet. I make sure my dogs get plenty of omega 3 and 6 fatty acids. I add flax oil, flax seed - crushed, hemp oil, sardines and canned wild pacific salmon to their meals a few times a week...of course not all the same add in's on the same day...I rotate ;) I also give them Shark Cartilage as well. With the supplement I give, it is liquid and tells you exactly the amount to give on the back of the bottle. I have been giving this consistantly to my Rottweiler with severe hip dysplasia and my Newf with Elbow Dysplasia for about 5 years now. They are doing fantastic. My Vets are constantly amazed at the flexability my Rottie has in her hips. One new Vet thought she had the wrong file for my Rottie as she insisted she could not have HD after rotating her back legs. She was shocked. :)
I give other supplements as well and I strongly believe in rotating kibbles and giving as many raw meals as possible especially meat with plenty of cartlidge, turkey necks etc. RMB's
I give the Glucosmine to my other dogs as a preventative as well. ;)

Answer:
Thanks everybody. I will boost Roxie to 1000mg perday and give Brutus 500mg. I do believe it is starting to help Roxie. She is getting more playful again. However the extra weight, is not helping. Tried giving her carrots for extra filler but she gums them doesnt really eat them. I will try adding green beans to see if that helps her hunger pangs. I will also check at the feed store to see what Glucosamine formulas they have there.

Answer:
Some times you can find better deals at your local tack store for Horses on supplements. When you are trying to add to a large animals diet you have to have good prices ;) . My Sister has her 2 horses on a Glucosamine supplement for joint health...if she had to pay the prices that a pet owner for dogs had to pay at the Vet clinic or at a pet store she would be robbing banks to keep her horses in shape. :D

Answer:
there are many products out there that are a combination of glucosamine and chondroitin, but i've read too many things about oral chondroitin not being absorbed well at all, and that you need to inject it directly to have a benefit. it doesn't hurt to buy a combo product if someone wants to, but the effectivity isn't proven. the glucosamine is proven to work when taken orally.
athe, there's not much of a difference between the HCL and sulfate, and you certainly don't need both (they are just different ways used to bind the clucosamine and stabilize it, just like for example you can get a calcium supplement as calcium carbonate, calcium gluconate, calcium lactate, calcium citrate etc.).
some individual people/dogs absorb one better than the other, but that's relatively rare.

Answer:
Thank you Mordy. I can't remember where I read about using both Glucosamine Sulfate and HCL. It just stuck with me all these years. I meant to mention as well that the supplement I give also has MSM in it. My Sister has horses and all the horse people swear by it for arthritis and joint pain.
I am just so happy with the supplement I am currently using for my crippled animals with deformed bodies that I tend to swear by it... ;) The name of the supplement I use is called Nutri Aid GCM. I just love it.
There is so much information out there and all of it contradicts each other. I think I read too many health books by different authors! :)

Answer:
MSM is good stuff. :) good for lots of other things than just joint problems too.
there are many, many supplements out there, and as long as they are high quality - stick with what works.
my recommendations are just generally for products that are of good quality and easy to find, so people don't necessarily have to rely on specialty pet stores etc. :)