2006 ATTS Breed StatisticsQuestion:**the first number is the # of dogs tested, the # of dogs passed, & the # of dogs failed & the overall passing rate** My breed: AMERICAN PIT BULL TERRIER 542 456 86 84.1% AKITA 447 329 118 73.6% AUSTRALIAN CATTLE DOG 162 127 35 78.4% AUSTRALIAN SHEPHERD 571 461 110 80.7% BASSET HOUND 33 28 5 84.8% BEAGLE 59 47 12 79.7% BICHON FRISE 27 21 6 77.8% . BOXER 368 311 57 84.5% BULLDOG 125 86 39 68.8% CAVALIER KING CHARLES SPANIEL 45 36 9 80.0% CHIHUAHUA 35 25 10 71.4% CHOW CHOW 89 62 27 69.7% COCKER SPANIEL 219 179 40 81.7% GERMAN SHEPHERD DOG 2,833 2,361 472 83.3% GOLDEN RETRIEVER 687 576 111 83.8% LABRADOR RETRIEVER 686 628 58 91.5% MINIATURE POODLE 64 49 15 76.6% PAPILLON 79 63 16 79.7% PEMBROKE WELSH CORGI 182 142 40 78.0% POMERANIAN 32 24 8 75.0% PRESA CANARIO 14 13 1 92.9% PUG 40 36 4 90.0% ROTTWEILER 4744 3,923 821 82.7% SHIBA INU 23 15 8 65.2% SHIH TZU 39 30 9 76.9% STAFFORDSHIRE BULL TERRIER 61 52 9 85.2% WEIMARANER 206 164 42 79.6% YORKSHIRE TERRIER 37 30 7 81.1% To see the entire breed list, the link is http://www.atts.org/statistics.html I just posted some of the more common breeds I see on this site. :) Answer: You know, I've looked at the temperament testing and I have to say I'm just not impressed with it. I don't find it tremendously valid or realistic. They say they take the dog's breed into consideration in judging the test, but I seriously doubt these testers know or understand what every breed's temperament should be. I didn't see anything on the site that indicates the training a tester must go through. And they don't even test for reaction to another dog, which I think is vitally important in today's society, nor do they check prey drive (which can easily kick in at the sight of a running child). Instead they open an umbrella and shoot a gun, neither of which (to me) are a good test of a dog's temperament. They say it simulates a "walk through a park or neighborhood where everyday situations are encountered". But gunshots? Walking over an ex-pen? You're much more likely to see children playing or dogs running around. It's just not very realistic, to me, and not an actual true measure of a dog's temperament. I kind of group it with the shelter testing that has become so popular - people feed into it, but that doesn't make it valid. I wouldn't take those statistics to heart in any way, personally. Just my always honest opinion. Melanie and the gang in Alaska Answer: CAUCASIAN OVCHARKA 4 4 0 100.0% Basically had 100% pass rate for like a year now. But sample is way to small. But the temparement testing is breed based. Therefore it checks only if the breed has correct temperament not if it has temperament you like. Answer: HaHaHa, subtest #9 and #10 mentions "a weird stranger" I wonder how they determin "weird" as seen by a dog. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm........... I think my dogs would consider us all "weird" Answer: Very poor test in my opinion. You can speak with a person that is a paranoid schizophrenic for instance, and they can appear perfectly normal for long periods of time and then all of a sudden they are symptomatic. The same is true for dogs, where a dog is friendly and all of a sudden acts up due to one or more reasons. Testing a dog for 12 minutes and saying it has a good temperament is absurd. Answer: The ATTS Temperament Test focuses on and measures different aspects of temperament such as stability, shyness, aggressiveness, and friendliness as well as the dog's instinct for protectiveness towards its handler and/or self-preservation in the face of a threat. The test simulates a casual walk through a park or neighborhood where everyday life situations are encountered. During this walk, the dog experiences visual, auditory and tactile stimuli. Neutral, friendly and threatening situations are encountered, calling into play the dog's ability to distinguish between non-threatening situations and those calling for watchful and protective reactions. Dogs must be at least 18 months old to enter this test. The test takes about eight to 12 minutes to complete. The dog is on a loose six-foot (6') lead. The handler is not allowed to talk to the dog, give commands, or give corrections. Failure on any part of the test is recognized when a dog shows: Unprovoked aggression Panic without recovery Strong avoidance The ATTS Temperament Test consists of ten subtests divided into five subcategories: Behavior Toward Strangers Objective: To measure the dog's reaction to strangers in a non-threatening situation. Subtest 1: Neutral stranger A stranger to the dog approaches the handler, shakes hands with the handler and engages the handler in a brief conversation, ignoring the dog. The purpose of this subtest is to evaluate the dog's reaction to passive socialization and the dog's protective instinct. Subtest 2: Friendly stranger A stranger to the dog approaches happily and briskly, is very friendly to the dog and pets the dog. The purpose of this subtest is to evaluate the dog's active social skills. Reaction to Auditory Stimuli Objective: To measure the dog's reaction to auditory stimuli and the dog's investigative behavior. Subtest 3: Hidden Noise The handler/dog team approaches a hidden assistant who rattles a metal bucket filled with rocks and sets this bucket in the path of the team. The handler may encourage the dog to investigate the bucket only when asked to do so. The handler's focus must be on the bucket, not on the dog. The purpose of this subtest is to test alertness and curiosity. Subtest 4: Gunshots The handler stops at a designated marker with his/her back towards a well hidden assistant. The assistant fires three shots using a .22 caliber starter pistol (SHOT-PAUSE-SHOT-SHOT). The purpose of this subtest is to measure the dog's recovery response to a sudden noise. Reaction to Visual Stimulus Objective: To measure the dog's reaction to a sudden visual stimulus. Subtest 5: Umbrella The handler/dog team approaches an assistant sitting in a chair holding a closed umbrella parallel to the ground at a 90 degree angle to the approaching team. When the dog is five feet from the assistant, the umbrella is opened. The handler may encourage the dog to investigate the umbrella only when asked to do so. The handler's focus must be on the umbrella, not on the dog. Tactile Stimuli Objective: To measure the dog's reaction to unusual footing. Subtest 6: Plastic Footing Both the handler and the dog walk the entire length of a 15-foot by 6-foot clear plastic strip. Subtest 7: Wire Footing Only the dog will walk the entire length of a 12-foot by 3-foot unfolded exercise pen. The purpose of these subtests is to measure the dog's sensitivity to unusual footing, its ability to recover from the fear of unusual footing and to measure its investigative behavior to the unusual footing. Self Protective/Aggressive Behavior Objective: These tests collectively evaluate the dog's capacity to recognize an unusual situation, its threshold to provocation, its protective instincts, and its propensity to realize when the situation becomes a threat. Subtest 8: Non-Threatening The handler/dog team stops at the designated marker. A weirdly-dressed stranger crosses the path 38 feet in front of the team. The purpose of this subtest is to test the dog's alertness to an unusual situation. Subtest 9: Threatening The weird stranger advances 10 feet towards the stationary handler in a threatening manner. The purpose of this subtest is to evaluate the dog's ability to recognize when an unusual situation turns into a provocation. Subtest 10: Aggression The weird stranger advances to within 18 feet of the stationary handler in an aggressive manner. The purpose of this subtest is to evaluate the dog's protective instincts. The stranger is never closer than 10 feet from the dog. The handler's 2 foot arm and the 6' lead is added in for a total of 18 feet. Aggression here is checked against the breed standard and the dog's training. A schutzhund trained dog lunging at the stranger is allowed, but if an untrained Siberian husky does the same, it may fail. Answer: I don't think this organization makes much sense. When you talk about temperament-testing dogs, you have to choose a goal because there is no consensus on what is a desirable temperament for a dog: some people want a dog who will placidly allow anyone to do anything to him, others want a dog who'll remove a family member's face for walking past the owner's car. And that divergence exists within breeds as well as in breed differences; aka, the 'X's are supposed to be human-aggressive/dog-aggressive/etc.' crowd v. the 'X's need to fit into today's world better' proponents. This ATTS seems to be ducking the issue of how can you make allowances for schutzhund training and super-sharp attack breeding (for instance) if you're trying to temperament test for average households in typical communities. ATTS was established to: Provide for a uniform national program of temperament testing of purebred and spayed/neutered mixed-breed dogs. Conduct seminars to disseminate information to dog owners, dog breeders and evaluators (testers) concerning dog psychology, motivation, reaction and other aspects of temperament testing. Recognize and award certificates to dogs that pass the requirements of the temperament evaluation. Work for the betterment of all breeds of dogs. Select, train, prepare and register temperament evaluators Answer: .............................. Testing a dog for 12 minutes and saying it has a good temperament is absurd. I totally agree.................my dogs or kids can be good for a whole 12 minutes if I am watching them :) and 13 if there is a treat involved! CGC's, any OB title,this particular test, and others like them are not a guarantee of anything with any dog.....................there are no guarantees in life. Thats why I believe owners should pass the test, not the dogs (no guarantees then either, but perhaps a better percentage on the outcomes for the public) Answer: **sigh** NO WHERE did I say this was a factual test that told the truth of all breeds. NO WHERE did I say that we should accept the findings of this & put them in stone & worship them. I am no so stupid as to realize that some breeds passed with a 100% success rate......all 2 of them. But the biggest thing I'd like to say is I'm sorry I ever wasted me time on a forum with such hateful "kill them all the world is safer without them" people who would love to pull the trigger to kill every "pit bull" themself if they could. I'm sorry people here accept the media stories as truth & don't give a rat's ass if further investiagion yields an entirely different scenario and/or even different breed of dog. I'm sorry that people here are so close-minded & that their opinions should be viewed by poeple like me as fact & we should absent mindedly listen & obey your every wish & demand. I'm sorry you will NEVER take my dogs from me. Good-bye. Answer: **sigh** NO WHERE did I say this was a factual test that told the truth of all breeds. NO WHERE did I say that we should accept the findings of this & put them in stone & worship them. I am no so stupid as to realize that some breeds passed with a 100% success rate......all 2 of them. But the biggest thing I'd like to say is I'm sorry I ever wasted me time on a forum with such hateful "kill them all the world is safer without them" people who would love to pull the trigger to kill every "pit bull" themself if they could. I'm sorry people here accept the media stories as truth & don't give a rat's ass if further investiagion yields an entirely different scenario and/or even different breed of dog. I'm sorry that people here are so close-minded & that their opinions should be viewed by poeple like me as fact & we should absent mindedly listen & obey your every wish & demand. I'm sorry you will NEVER take my dogs from me. Good-bye. Huh?? Where did that come from? :confused: I think I missed something here. Where on earth did anybody say anything about APBTs? All I read was critique to the statistic and the test itself. I dunno.. I think you are way out of line with your "this forum hates bully breeds and you are all ignorant and haters" mentality. I can only hope that you got out of bed with the wrong foot, will stay and post some more darling pictures of your gang! Answer: Miakoda I am sorry if my posts made you feel that way.........that was surely not my intent at all. ((((hugs))))) Answer: I disagree with most of you, big surprise. Not saying that these tests are the be all and end all, but with a fair degree of accuracy, you could get a decent read on the temperment of a dog. It doesn't guarentee anything, life is too variable for that, but you can get a pretty fair estimation of a dogs temperment. Of course that's really going to depend on how and where the test is administered, and who is giving it, but in 12 minutes, you can tell a lot. I'm glad they're doing it, you need to start somewhere. Excellence can't be your enemy. Same for the CGC, I don't really think as I see them tested for and given out now always mean a whole lot, but they could with refinement in testing sites and testers. Answer: Excellence in what, though? Excellence in dogs who can tolerate human interactions, or excellence in dogs who catch hogs or take out enemy intruders? Simply biasing the test overall toward dogs of stolid temperaments who don't react much to much of anything, then attempting to backdoor dogs like terriers and Akitas by making allowances for breed type or training doesn't add up. Do all dogs have to be stolid unless they were developed in 1202 to guard palaces? Is a breed origin from 200 years ago sufficient to warrant a 'pass' when a dog exhibits behavior that is dangerous in modern society and would fail if he was a different breed? Where's the excellence in any of this? Any organization that claims to temperament test needs to clearly state it's goals, and it's goals can't be inclusive. You're either looking for a racehorse or a schoolie, you can't have both. I don't want to sound too snotty, but it's important. If the dog world loses the trust of larger society through too many flawed or badly administered 'temperament tests' --leading to headlines like "Killer Dog Was A+ Pass on Shelter Temperament Test" --all our dogs are in trouble. Answer: If you want a good temperament test for a dog, try GROOMING them! Think about it, you have to handle them, handle their feet, mess with their ears and touch them in ways they may not particularly like. You might use loud things (dryers), or touch their body with things they don't particularly like (clippers, etc.). Sometimes when brushing a long-haired dog you might catch on a knot which could hurt. Some dogs will whip around and bite, some will just whine. And there's lots of weird sights and smells and lots of different people in grooming salons. I think grooming is a good way to judge a dog's temperament/bite inhibition! Answer: Excellence in the tests, meaning don't let that be your enemy. You have to start somewhere. I'm sure their tests aren't perfect. I guess the real saying goes "don't let perfection, be the enemy of excellence" or something like that. Meaning its not perfect to start with, but don't wait till everything is perfect to start. I'm sure the tests need to be perfected, I"m sure the evaluators need more training and should probably be breed specific. BUT there are some big flaws that you can see in dogs in a relative short amount of time with some quick tests that could be used for all breeds. Now whether its tolerating human interaction or catching hogs, I don't think that's really a temperment test, but should be a breed specific test done by the parent clubs and is a different game to me. I don't think this method is the best, i'm not even really familiar with it. I expect for it to move forward they'd make some changes eventually and more clearly state their goals. There are so many variables in everything I'm not sure there is any thing that would make everyone happy, but to me, if someone is willing to test their dog in some venue, probably shows they care more than the average person and if their dogs has some weaker areas, they'll know how to protect their dog and people from any situations should they arise. I know you can train for certain scenrio's to make your dog look better, and that is Ok to a degree, cause it still shows that the owner is willing to work and put time in to make things better. That is different than Shelter's doing the work because you are the one doing the test with your dog not taking the shelter's word for it. You would actually have to spend time with your dog and be somewhat competent in reading and reacting to dog behvior, not an expert, but I don't think we all need to be. Either way I guess I don't feel any more safe or that the streets are more dangerous cause they do or don't require these tests. I know my dogs, I feel safe around other dogs, and mandating anything like this wouldn't change the people that don't give a crap now anyway. A little off topic, oops. Answer: I'm sorry you feel that way, Miakoda. Answer: Keep in mind, and this has been said many times before and I only recently started to fully understand it, that a breed's temperament does not mean anything in these cases. Dogs can be whatever they are, but if they do not fit what PEOPLE WANT, then they aren't what they want around. It's not really about testing the dog based on the expected temperament due to breed...it's about what's acceptable in society, mostly. There are exceptions for certain breeds I'm sure. But it is overall temperament in everyday life, not in situations that will probably never happen. Answer: Miakoda made a point. There are some members here who will not take actual FACTS to save their life...much less the innocent lives of animals who have done NO WRONG. There are people who honestly believe that a breed that is punished by the media (and they believe every minute of it, for some reason) can go 15 years without biting someone, but is probably going to do it before they die. It's absurd. It's disgusting. And it's everywhere. Every single pit bull topic turns out this way. Nobody understands the patterns that have been made over the decades. They refuse to. They refused to with the last breed, and before that, and before that. They ARE close-minded, they DONT listen. These people shoot down education as much as they possibly can. They don't believe in it. No matter what they say, or what excuses they make ("oh educating doesn't work"), the truth is, they just do not care. It is hard to let yourself be proven wrong, but sometimes, you need to. There are so many people in need of real reality checks, and if they got one, the world would be a better place. Stop shooting down everyone's ideas to save these dogs. It is not only rude, but it's showing a complete lack of common sense, education, and tolerance. Those are three things this world is in depserate need of right now, and there is no topic that should have discussors lacking any of them. Answer: I hate pitbulls :eek: Including my own!! Ha ha. The few rare breeds that scored high or low because of a low sample number of course is not a fair portrayal of anything really. The larger sample numbers I would guess are much more accurate. Nothing is going to hit the nail directly on the head, but it would give you *some* kind of idea about a breed's temperment if you read up on what exactly is considered a pass in which category of the test combined with what's expected of the breed's temperment. Although I do agree that the levels of training of the dogs if any should be publicized, a Golden that's never been socialized or gone to an obedience class may fail horribly, while a horrible, evil pit who's gone to school may pass. (that was sarcasm) I suppose I should mention breeds that are SUPPOSED to be wary of humans or bred to even perhaps be aggressive towards humans like dobes or GSD's as well. Does it say anywhere on the website that if a Dobe is wary of a stranger it fails/passes? The amount of research put into what a breed should or shouldn't do in any of those situations would have to be intense to trully be fair statistics, but it's nice to look at it and think about nonetheless. Answer: I'd just like to add seeing as the topic is already kind of headed that way... Miakoda, if you really want to help the breed get out in your own community. Sure change can happen on the internet, education and what not, but if you really honestly want to help the breed, go out on a Sunday with your pit, have some candies, some pamphlets anything to catch peoples attention. Allow them to see your hopefully friendly pit, give your LOCAL community some education. I've inadvertently changed close to a dozen or possibly more, peoples ideas of pitbulls IN MY OWN community. And it feels a lot better than preaching (not saying you are personally) on the internet. Get up close and personal with those that you feel have misinterpreted your breed. Answer: Miakoda does do a lot with her dogs. She doesn't just aim for the internet (eventhough, THAT is where you target people. a community is only so much). Answer: Both of you are awfully hostile, chinchow and Miakoda. I was merely offering up what *I* do with my dogs and what *I* personally feels makes much more of a difference than preaching to people on a DOG FORUM, that LOVE dogs and most people here DO understand how misinterpreted the breed is, while still respecting the breeds heritage. And just for the record, I don't TARGET anyone. :) Answer: How was I hostile? I told you that she doesn't just go on the internet. That's not hostile. And I never said that going around a community does nothing, or that you did anything wrong. And Miakoda stuck up for her breed. She wasn't being hostile, she's just had it with some people on this board. Every one of her posts is always filled with amazing information, first-hand information, that many of those particular people she is talking about lacks severely. And yet, they still try to make a case. Sorry if you think that is hostile...but there is a lot more on this board in contrast that is ten times more hostile than that. Answer: The thing is, nobody said anything negative about APBTs. The only critique was about the method and outcome. How does that say anything negative about the breed?? It jumped to my eye, at first I was all happy about the outcome of the Am Staffs...and then I saw how many less were tested compared to the APBT, for example. The list does not mean anything, it would only mean something if they had tested 100 dogs from each breed. To call this whole forum ignorant, APBT hostile and whatever is was is simply ridiculous. Look at that other thread about the vids. Yes, very anti bully breed and pro BSL indeed from EVERY MEMBER of this forum :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: I think she just had a bad day and we got the vent. It's okay, everybody has moments like this. I just hope she catches the nerve and comes back, every else would remind me of high school. ;) Answer: Well, I'm very proud to say that Loki should be one of the hundreds who are counted among the passing. And that agitator got closer than 10 feet, while my honest little bulldog play-bowed at him. I wear my flawed TT and my piddly little CGC proudly, because its more than most dogs have. Loki - UWP UCD 'PR' Matrix's I Defy Gravity CGC TT WDS (soon to be UWPCH and UAGI, too) Answer: ..................................... I wear my flawed TT and my piddly little CGC proudly, because its more than most dogs have. Loki - UWP UCD 'PR' Matrix's I Defy Gravity CGC TT WDS (soon to be UWPCH and UAGI, too) I have a feeling that I have offended you with my mention of cgc and ob titles not being a guarantee................I did not mean to diminish the accomplishment in any way shape or form............I hope that Orson can earn his one day too. It was just pointed out to me yesterday on a different thread that a dog holding a CGC, and that was used in training class as "the friendly dog" also sent someone to the hospital...........that is all I meant by being no guarantee. And I mentioned somewhere else that I do not own a bully breed, and I am a little naive as to the amount of discrimination that goes on with them, but I now how people act when I walk Orson down the isle of Petsmart..........and it doesn't always feel so good when they look at you a certain way. :( Answer: Wow, Shetland Sheepdogs did absolutely awful! Only 63.7% passed! Most failed because of skittishness, no doubt. Answer: Honestly, where in the test does it SAY EXPLICITLY that they are guarenteeing the dog's/breeds temperaments? It does not. And, it is a pretty difficult test of a dogs trust & obedience to it's handler as well as general breed disposition (although it lacks a reaction with other dogs, which I would like to see) that I know Gonzo wouldn't pass. I think it's pretty interesting, and most of the breed results make sense to me. Of course it isn't the most complete temperament test possible.... do you expect testers to follow a dog & handler around for days and examine every little move they make? Ummmm no. The only supreme temperament test can come from an observant, well-educated owner who knows their dog. Sure, there are occasions (very very rarely) when a dog "snaps" out of nowhere. But to a responsible owner who has spent time training their dog, there WILL be plenty of warning signs of aggressive or behavioral issues, even in a puppy. However, I definitely think this test says a lot about the general temperament stability of different breeds, and to completely discount it is dumb. Try to go design the "perfect" temperament test, if you're really that unsatisfied with this one. :< Answer: I'm not in the least surprised at the results for Shibas. Until just VERY recently, many breeders excused absolutely AWFUL temperaments, as being "typical of the breed." I once watched in horror as a judge put up a dog for WINNERS that repeatedly tried to bite him. Shibas are NOT supposed to be human aggressive. Dog aggressive? Sure. Aloof towards people outside of the family? Absolutely? But it is COMPLETELY against the nature of this breed to be anything worse than aloof towards humans. I am proud to say however, that the majority of Shiba breeders today are doing a *much* better job with temperaments. Answer: ACooper- I have to agree. In our class a dog with his CD, not a highly advanced OB title, but a title nonetheless attacked my dog. Titles don't guarentee how a dog will act in certain circumstances, but the training involved in attaining that title usually helps. Answer: I have a feeling that I have offended you with my mention of cgc and ob titles not being a guarantee................I did not mean to diminish the accomplishment in any way shape or form............I hope that Orson can earn his one day too. Not offended, not really. I think the "those TT tests don't really mean anything" started on page 1, and I don't remember who started it. And in all honesty, they really don't mean anything if you're looking for a surefire way to judge a dog's temperament. (Most statistics mean precisely jack since they can be skewed any which way to show the compiler's intended result.) But... they do mean something if you're looking for the owner that cares. This TT, that CGC, this hard-earned obedience title, that ribbon from the fun show; they all add up. If the intent becomes to seperate the worthy owners from the uninterested ones -- especially when it comes to those challenging breeds -- I think the little things need to be taken into consideration. Honestly, when I'm looking for a breeder to buy a puppy from, I look for those things. Don't tell me about a dog's looks or bloodline, show me what he has done, even if it isn't much. I feel like the accumulated small things have already put me a light year ahead of the majority of dog owners I encounter. That may come off as snobbish, but I need to prove that my dog is a worthwhile animal, and that by owning her, I'm enhancing the situation around me, rather than causing its deterioration. So, yeah. This is something I feel strongly about. TTs aren't perfect. Neither are CGCs. Or UCDs. Or whatever! There is no perfect title. But show me a dog that has more than one in different areas, and there's a safe bet he's worth a look. JMO. Answer: **sigh** NO WHERE did I say this was a factual test that told the truth of all breeds. NO WHERE did I say that we should accept the findings of this & put them in stone & worship them. I am no so stupid as to realize that some breeds passed with a 100% success rate......all 2 of them. But the biggest thing I'd like to say is I'm sorry I ever wasted me time on a forum with such hateful "kill them all the world is safer without them" people who would love to pull the trigger to kill every "pit bull" themself if they could. I'm sorry people here accept the media stories as truth & don't give a rat's ass if further investiagion yields an entirely different scenario and/or even different breed of dog. I'm sorry that people here are so close-minded & that their opinions should be viewed by poeple like me as fact & we should absent mindedly listen & obey your every wish & demand. I'm sorry you will NEVER take my dogs from me. Good-bye. While the comments were a tad unreasonable and certainly do not describe the board as a whole, I see Miakoda's frustration. There have been MANY pit bull threads of late and there have been a few ignorant people bashing them all to hell. If someone were bashing lab/pointer mixes, I'd be pissed off, too. If someone were bashing pugs, I bet some of our pug-owned members would be pissed off, too. If someone were bashing dobermans, I bet some of our dobe-owned members would be pissed off, too. Anyone getting the point? I certainly hope so by now. Such is life. We, unfortunately, will never get everyone to agree on an topic in life. It's just not going to happen. It sounds nice and in theory, we can work it all out. But in reality, well, there are ignorant people. There really are. So... You pit bull, lab/pointer, pug and dobe owners take the high road. Do the best with your breed and do the best as a dog owner and you will have accomplished a great deed. Ignore the ignorant. By all means try to educate, but take the high road when you know the battle has been lost (with certain people, the battle will never be lost- fight it with all you have). So, Miakoda, I hope you have not left. I hope you stay right here. I hope you read this. I know exactly what you are referring to with your rant. But please do understand that there is a large majority of dog loving people on this board that care for all breeds, that have tolerance and education and a right mind about things. There really are. And please, no more bashing the board. And, surprisingly, I'm going to leave your comment up (although another mod may decide to take it down) but I think some people need to read it. Some people deserve that message, but not everyone. And the people that don't, surely know who they are. Answer: Some of those sample sizes are way too small to be credible, but the larger samples sizes are interesting and many are in the same range. Answer: Some people hold these tests in high regard, and some of those same people have myth problems about certain breeds on that list. This test has changed people's ideas of several breeds. I showed it to my cousin, about Chow Chows, Pit Bulls, and a few others. Redgardless of how many of them there are in the world, it was the high number that were tested, and the high number that passed that changed her mind about them. She finally understands now that there are bad eggs just like there are bad people, and it's those bad people who usually produce and own those bad eggs. These tests might not mean anything to some people, but to those who can use it for good (since it can't really be USED for much but to examine) then they should. It worked for me and a few other people I know. Use it to your advantage. Don't give a long speach about how many dogs of each breed and yadda yadda. That's not really the point of it. Answer: I'm just curious & I want HONEST opinions. If APBTs, ASTs, SBTs, & BTs did badly on these tests, can you honestly say you then wouldn't hold them in a higher standard? Because my feelings are that you would & then throw them in our faces left & right as more "proof". Answer: I'm just curious & I want HONEST opinions. If APBTs, ASTs, SBTs, & BTs did badly on these tests, can you honestly say you then wouldn't hold them in a higher standard? Because my feelings are that you would & then throw them in our faces left & right as more "proof". Who is the "you" ?? We all have different opinions and and most of us are not that close-minded and ignorant enough to jump on any bandwagon for the sake of throwing anything up in anyones face... Personally, I could care less about what breed anyone has, as long as they care for their animals and have some common sense about themselves and their animals.. Answer: Who is the "you" ?? We all have different opinions and and most of us are not that close-minded and ignorant enough to jump on any bandwagon for the sake of throwing anything up in anyones face... Personally, I could care less about what breed anyone has, as long as they care for their animals and have some common sense about themselves and their animals.. Well said! :hail: And I would like an answer to the, "who is the 'you'" question.... I'm sure Makoda means a general 'you'.. right? Answer: Who is the "you" ?? We all have different opinions and and most of us are not that close-minded and ignorant enough to jump on any bandwagon for the sake of throwing anything up in anyones face... Personally, I could care less about what breed anyone has, as long as they care for their animals and have some common sense about themselves and their animals.. I'm sorry, the "you" meant anyone in general. Sorry for the confusion.:) Answer: I'm just curious & I want HONEST opinions. If APBTs, ASTs, SBTs, & BTs did badly on these tests, can you honestly say you then wouldn't hold them in a higher standard? Because my feelings are that you would & then throw them in our faces left & right as more "proof". I don't care about the tests one way or the other. One thing to keep in mind is that people doing these temperament tests are most likely responsible owners, so even if their dogs fail they will still keep them under control. What idiot who never spends more than a minute with his dog every day is going to get it temperament tested? It's these neglected dogs that I feel are the biggest problem, and you have them in every breed. The tests are a place to start, but I don't view them as conclusive proof that the majority of any breed is nice/nasty. It is, however, good to see that responsibly owned Pit-type dogs are just like any other dog. :) Answer: Miakoda, you do make a great point. If APBT had failed miserably it probably would be thrown in our faces. But personally, in my own mind, I know my little guy is not an evil, wild, human killer that is totally uncontrollable. I also know personally a few APBT's that are. *shrugs* Everyone has at one time or another,myself included, hated on a breed because of a bad experience or a screwed media presentation. I think there are some things about a breed that you can mostly say are true. But a dogs temperment as whole is totally unique. Sure, with Goldens, most of them are happy, care free friendly dogs, but what type of people own a Golden? What type of environment are the majority of Golden's raised in? Questions and answers like those are what really matters to me. A Pitbull raised in a good dog environment full of different stimuli and plenty of training will most likely be an excellent companion or OB dog or agility etc. And for the pits that do have DA, in an environment like the one above, are probably worked with and the owner is more than aware and careful with the animal. Answer: I'm just curious & I want HONEST opinions. If APBTs, ASTs, SBTs, & BTs did badly on these tests, can you honestly say you then wouldn't hold them in a higher standard? Because my feelings are that you would & then throw them in our faces left & right as more "proof". My honest to goodness answer straight from my heart is NO I would not consider it MORE proof against them in the least, I would've still questioned the methods for the test. Pittbulls passed this test with a higher rating than dobermans, they tested over 1400 dobes and over 300 failed...(76% passed).........doesn't make me love mine any less. By that testing standard a skiddish dog fails...............doesn't mean it's aggressive to me. Answer: Breed Name Tested Passed Failed Percent BELGIAN SHEEPDOG 457 364 93 79.6% BELGIAN TERVUREN 417 324 93 77.7% Answer: You have to consider the "failure" rates by the probable cause. A breed known to be protective (Dobe, Rott, GSD, APBT, etc) who shys away from the "weird stranger" would fail the test. These dogs would not have bad temperament in a way that was dangerous to the general public, but instead just don't have the "expected" temperament the evaluators were looking for (btw - there are several evaluators who combine their opinion to determine a score - it's not just one person's opinion). I use temperament testing as a way to showcase soundness. I like the title, and just add it to the other things my dogs do to prove to me they are stable. I would never use it as the end-all-be-all, but it is a nice addition. There are plenty of Collies who will never be tested, because their owners/breeders KNOW they will not pass, so honestly, I think people enter a temperament test thinking (or hoping) their dog will pass. Most people would not test a dog they know would not pass, so you really can't trust those statistics in regard to the general population. It's a nice comparison, but that's about it. Answer: Colliewog makes a very valuable point! I 100% agree. I want to get Riots TT title sometime this summer. You have to consider the "failure" rates by the probable cause. A breed known to be protective (Dobe, Rott, GSD, APBT, etc) who shys away from the "weird stranger" would fail the test. These dogs would not have bad temperament in a way that was dangerous to the general public, but instead just don't have the "expected" temperament the evaluators were looking for (btw - there are several evaluators who combine their opinion to determine a score - it's not just one person's opinion). Answer: VERY good points Colliewog...............especially the one about people entering at least expecting their dog to pass. I definitely wouldn't go without having worked a lot with my dog before hand. Answer: I'm sorry, the "you" meant anyone in general. Sorry for the confusion.:) Its quite alright :D Answer: Here are the exercises and the things they test. This is at least in part a test for dogs that are expected to be protection dogs. I would also think that the tested dogs would all fail if they didn't have some obedience training first, as many of the exercises are contingent on an "ok" from the handler. I think they could change the name of this test to Protection Dog Temperament Test. Link: http://www.atts.org/testdesc.html Answer: Man, talk about over-reaction. Why can't people say they don't think this is a valid test? Why is that immediately taken as criticism of any particular breed?? There was NO PB bashing here, and it boggles the mind that someone would have taken it that way. I think this test is completely flawed for all breeds, and that includes the GSD's and the chows (my breeds). It has nothing to do with PB's in any way. The thread topic is "2006 ATTS Breed Statistics" .. not "Pitbulls are wonderful because of this test". I commented on the TEST, not on the BREED. This test is flawed for numerous reasons. I think the idea of a temperament test is a good one but it should have been set up better. The problem with saying a dog is "temperament tested" is that it makes it sound - to the general public - that if the dog passes it must have a "good" temperament. Passing this test means nothing when it comes to reality of living in today's society. I've already mentioned that lack of test for prey drive and for dog aggression. I'd say that a test for food guarding should be part of a temperament test too. If you're not going to test the dog for practical, real-life situations then call the test something other than just "temperament test" and make it obvious that the test does not mean that the dog has a temperament that is acceptable for public exposure. I can see why some people would want to test to see if their dogs have the instincts and temperament proper for each particular breed. In that case, call it a "breed instinct test" and let the parent clubs set up a test that accurately checks for those traits that the dog was originally bred for. Another thing about the TT is that people are mostly only going to have their dogs tested if they think their dogs will pass. I know in some breeds there's a huge push to have as many pass as possible in the hopes that it will make the breed look better (GSD's, for example, have been pushed some to take this test). If 80% of the dogs tested pass, then there's a tendency with some people to think that 80% of the entire breed has this "good" temperament. Of course, that's not valid. There's also the problem in knowing why a dog DIDN'T pass. Did it fail because it was overly reactive, or not reactive enough?? A dog that is too placid can fail. While this placid temperament may be perfect for public interaction, it's not what they want for this test. But again, there's a misconception with many people and they think that the TT means the dog has a trustworthy temperament in all situations. As always, just my opinion - which, of course, is as valid as anyone else's opinion. Melanie and the gang in Alaska Answer: Here are the exercises and the things they test. This is at least in part a test for dogs that are expected to be protection dogs. I would also think that the tested dogs would all fail if they didn't have some obedience training first, as many of the exercises are contingent on an "ok" from the handler. I think they could change the name of this test to Protection Dog Temperament Test. Link: http://www.atts.org/testdesc.html Actually, there is no verbal communication or leash directing allowed between the dog and handler during the entire test. You are silent and have the dog on a completely loose lead at all times. In theory, that's how they "test" the dog's temperament. A highly trained dog will look to the handler for its next cure, but often won't think on its own, and when asked to do so, many cannot pass the test. Therefore, the dog with a sound temperament would approach an obstacle (expen or plastic on the ground), investigate a noise (gunshot or rattling bucket), or sudden movement (umbrella opening) or respond appropriately to a perceived danger (unfriendly stranger). They aren't expecting a Boston Terrier or Whippet to attempt protect the owner, but a Collie or Doberman should, and this is disclosed at the beginning of the test. They also will discuss with you at the end of the test the concensus of the evaluators, whether you passed or failed, and what your strengths/weaknesses are. Answer: Ok I kept seeing this: "The handler may encourage the dog to investigate the umbrella only when asked to do so."...so my assumption when reading it was that the dog couldn't do a thing unless asked. Since you have obviously experienced the test, I understand now that my assumption of the description is wrong. Answer: I've gone through the test with 2 different dogs, and you're allowed to talk to the bucket, or talk to the umbrella. You're not allowed to talk to the dog. Answer: I agree the test has a protection part of it not suited for all breeds. But they try to use the breed standards book + take into consideration what that specific dog is doing example therapy work or sport work. I own and or bred the 6 out of the 7 passing Central Asian Shepherd dogs. And I did or do not own the 1 that failed. But we are trying to get more of a club breed specific test that would be better for our breed... So for now we use the ATTS. We are looking towards the UKC SDA Alert one for inspiration.. Answer: My opinion is that dogs should not generally be judged on the basis of success in one test. When the TT is owned by a dog with numerous titles in a variety of discliplines, it can be one more indication of correct stable temperament. I do feel as a stand alone certification it might in some cases have less value than in a dog who has participated successfully in a variety of things. Answer: I agree but some breeds of dogs are not meant to do it all. Example a dog bred to guard a farm like a lGD may not be able to pass a CGC. IN which a dog is handed off to a stranger to walk away. Or rolled like the TDI. Or a Fila that is bred only to pass the strong protection test given by the Fila club which uses the standard for its requirement. Thus CLUB created tests are sometimes best suited for specific breeds vs all breeds tests like ATTS, Example a FIla that passed a CGC or a ATTS TT would be considered OUT of standard for the breed. Depends on the temperament requirement for the breed as per standard. Some breeds can DO it all kin to UKC Total dogs some can not they are more specialists. I have my studs do as much as they can CGC TDI ATTS FCI Tan Show CIvil. But finding a test when a bitch is NOT in heat is a bit harder... I only do the ATTS because it has a mild protection test for humans that my working LGDS never get to test. Since no one is stupid enough to tresspass on a working farm with loose fenced in working lgds. Some dogs are ALL that on home turf and turn tail off property. Either way this test and many others are ONE of many TOOLS a breeder can use to determine breeding and which dogs should be bred to whom. |
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