Any bully type breed not allowed at petsmart doggy day campQuestion:I was shocked to know that our Petsmart store has this policy: Dogs that are not allowed at doggie daycamp: "Intact (unneutered) male dogs or pregnant females Dogs with any aggressive tendencies regardless of breed Dogs in the "bully breed" classification (e.g. Pit Bull Terriers, American Pit bull Terriers, American Staffordshire Terriers, Staffordshire Bull Terriers, American Bull Dogs or mixed breeds that have the appearance or characteristics of one of these breeds) Wolves/wolf hybrids" This is their procedure before you are allowed in: How do I register my dog? "To ensure that all campers are healthy and happy, we employ a free, comprehensive health and temperament prescreening assessment for each prospective camper. Please ask a doggie day camp pet care specialist for more details." I can understand the 'intact males' I can understand 'pregnant females' and 'aggression' but................ If they do a comprehensive temperament screening on ALL dogs, what difference does the breed have to do with it??????????? I guess bully owners need to stop spending their hard earned cash at petsmart! Answer: It seems reasonable to me. Pit bull people have a saying . . . never trust a pit bull not to fight! Answer: You can never be 100% sure that any breed is not going to fight. There is no reason to target certain breeds. Answer: Can't say I agree with this or not, but it also can't be ignored that certain breeds were bred for dog fighting and I think that very fact deserves some extra attention... With that said, I think bully breeds, especially pitbulls, are some of the best dogs on the planet when it comes to how they interact with people. Answer: I'm shocked too. I've never known Petsmart to be that responsible. Answer: Why don't the females have to be fixed? My unaltered females have always been much moodier than my males-don't really see the reasoning there. Answer: The bully breeds may also be intimidating to other people in the class and 'scare off' potential clientele. The no bully breeds rule may give potential students a more confident feeling that this is going to be a safe and secure enviroment to bring their dog to. Not that I believe that all Pits etc. should be banned or anything--I just think this could be part of Petsmart's logic in prohibiting bully breeds from coming to classes. Answer: I'd be a little concerned about the owner if they were trying to get their Pitbull type dog into doggie daycare - a strange environment surrounded by strange dogs, excitement, etc? Not where I'd want a dog with a tendency towards dog-aggression. Sure, you have your exceptions. Some Border Collies don't even look at sheep. But if you put them in a pasture full of them and turned your back, that dog might start acting on its instincts. Same thing goes with a sighthound and a rabbit, or a Fila and someone attacking their owner. Dogs will usually do what they were originally bred to do, to some degree. I wouldn't trust a Pit Bull or bully-type dog not to fight if placed in a room with a bunch of other dogs. Answer: My point is/was if they do COMPREHENSIVE TEMPERAMENT TESTS, then why single out certain "types" that are not allowed?? Are you saying the dog may 'fake it', or 'cheat' on the test? If the test givers are that easily fooled then I would never use any doggy daycare, because I have been aggressively approached on two seperate occasions walking Orson.............one was a tiny poodle of some kind that did it's best to draw blood on him, the other was a grown german shepard who's owner grabbed him before damage could be done. I ask you, could either one of these two dogs 'fake it' or 'cheat' on the test too? I can tell you they are not my favorite breed, I would never own one. It has nothing to do with their "rep" they are just not the dog for me. I can say that about tons of other breeds too, but it isn't fair to mark them ALL as agressive. I say give them the opportunity to take and pass the so called test. Answer: The problem is that any temperament test is only as good as the person who designed it and the person who administers it. People working at Petsmart are hired because they're willing to work for low wages and the like animals. They are not skilled at dealing with dog behavior, they're not skilled at managing unhappy humans (say, the guy whose dog just failed a temperament test) and they're unqualified to ensure dangerous dogs are kept out of a daycare. A dog-aggressive dog isn't neccessarily a dog who frothes at the mouth 24/7, and tries to eat every dog it meets; a pro would see the quiet, pleasant dog who tenses minutely, who tracks other dogs, who patrols mentally, etc. for what it is. The average Petsmart clerk (or, sad to say, trainer) is going to say "Wow, he's such a sweetie!" and welcome the dog to daycare. Petsmart might be advertising that the daycare requires a temperament test, but they're probably aware that the only way to really do a good job is to get better people and they're unwilling to do that. So they'll bar the most commonly dog-aggressive breeds, do PR about temperament testing, and hope their peons can break up the fights that occur anyway. Answer: Good point about the people they hire...........I hear ya. Then another question would be, why are bullys the only banned dog? Why not Rotties, GSD, and even my little angel.........Dobermans? They can be dog aggressive if they choose to be, and I doubt the average "peon" as you call them, could break that up either. Why not just call it "little dogs day care" Answer: I hate how people single out certain breeds but then again.... it's Petsmart. I'd rather take my dog to a better doggy daycare if doggy daycare was something I was interested in. If they are going to be frowning on my type of dog I wouldn't want to take my dog there anyway. Answer: doggy daycare is where you leave your dog alone with all these other dogs, right? I think its unfair that they are singling them out for sure...its just dumb to mention PIT BULLS in their policy...really does target a specific breed negatively..with that being said, I would never ever leave my dog alone in an environment like that anyways..strange dogs, strange people..ME not there...no way jose! I don't agree with pitties not being in an environment where there are lots of dogs though..whoever mentioned that here..dog parks, no I wouldn't take my pittie to....doggy daycare, no I wouldn't take my pittie to... BUT, if we were to apply this generalization to every situation, then: I wouldn't be able to take Messina to agility now would I? There's lots of excitement there..dogs without leashes..running around..so since I have a pit I guess I couldn't take her to agility? Answer: That was changed 6 or so months ago.. That's when the new 'rules' as stated in the original post went into effect, people yelled and boycotted and threw a fit and nothing ever came of it. People stopped freaking, and now it's old enough that I'm not sure there's much anyone can do about it now. Answer: Bully breeds are a lot more than what is listed. If they are going to discriminate against those, then they might as well single them all out. That's a LOT of breeds. And a LOT of pissed off people too, I'm sure. Answer: I personally don't mind bull breeds not being allowed in the play groups with other dogs. I mean, we tell other APBT owners all the time not to take their dogs to the dog park, so why should this be any different? No, I don't really like that they've singled out the breed -- I think Pit Bull owners should single themselves out -- but I can see why they have. I still take my dog to Petsmart for shopping purposes. Not so much now that I have access to Southern Agriculture, which is by far a cooler store, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't. Edit: I wonder if they'd consider my Dogo a bull breed? Of course, those darn testicles would keep him out of the play group. :lol-sign: Answer: Weither or not bull breeds are not allowed would not matter that much to me as I for one would never leave my dog with the crazy employees of petsmart to begin with. Makes about as much sense to me as leaving them in a pen with walmart employees lol. If I need a babysitter I usually have my grandson come sit for my animals. I guess I am lucky that way. If I had to have them watched I would find a very experienced care provider and one that knew something about my breed. Answer: IM glad about this. Keeps the stupid pit owners from getting our dogs in trouble. The only time i have seen a responsible pit owner take there dogs to a place with a bunch of dogs is the boarding kennel i worked at. THey also had doggie daycare and my friend would bring her dog under the instructions that i took her out to play and ONLY with Walker. If i didnt work that day Lady didnt go in she came to my house. I would never take Tytus and leave him at a place with incompetent people. Which to me is petsmart. Answer: I don't know about other Petsmart Doggy Daycare, but ours does not do testing. They sign you up and there you go- that's it. However- they looked at Buddy and his potential to be a pit and told us no. He could be boarded, but he just couldn't play. Jerks. And it really irks me that they have some stuff that no other pet stores have..so we have to buy from there. Harumph. Answer: Good point about the people they hire...........I hear ya. Then another question would be, why are bullys the only banned dog? Why not Rotties, GSD, and even my little angel.........Dobermans? They can be dog aggressive if they choose to be, and I doubt the average "peon" as you call them, could break that up either. Why not just call it "little dogs day care" With all due respect to other breeds, they're not in the same league as pitbulls. It goes back to what they were all developed for. Rotties and Dobes were developed as guard dogs and they have a body and a brain that go along with those functions. Pitbulls were developed to kill other dogs, and they also have a body and a brain to go along with that objective. That's not an inconsequential difference. A dog-aggressive Rottie doesn't have the advantages that a dog-aggressive pitbull does; the short-haired skin over hard muscles is harder to grab than a Rottweiler's looser flesh,the pitbull's deepset eyes are difficult to reach in its massive skull, etc. Barring them from a group situation isn't unfair; it's a recognition that all breeds weren't created equal in the degree to which they can be called safe with other dogs. And 'little dogs daycare'? I hardly think that any dog that doesn't fall into the guard or fighting groups qualifies as little. Answer: One has to wonder what kind of owners would leave thier dogs in a "doggie day camp" at PETSMART no less. I'd be more worried about my dog with those people before the other dogs that were in there with them. Answer: They also mention American Bull dogs. I do have to agree, I wouldnt leave my dog with Pet Smart employees either. Nothing against them, but they dont make enough to care all that much. They seem to do the bare minimum to get by. I am sure some are wonderful but the ones here dont seem to care all that much. Answer: i agree...what's the point of temperment testing in that case? After i started reading on dogs, I came across some things I never knew, such as cocker spaniels have a tendency to bite, I always thought they were a guaranteed non aggresive dog, people also think of german shepherds sometimes as threatening but some of the best dogs I've known were shepherds. People think of cute fluffy dogs 9such as cockers and poodles as non threatening, but the worst dog I ever had growing up was a purebred small poodle- God love him, and we did bc he was our dog, but he had the worst temperament- very jittery and snappy and many times downright mean. If you went to pet him you never knew if he would allow you to, or would bite you. My dad got him bc he was so cute and fluffy. Anyways so i do think some breeds,are unfairly prejudiced against, out of a misunderstanding and fear. The best dog ewer at this shelter was a large shepherd mix, just a big boy, very sweet and totally harmless but you would see moms pulling their kids away from him and going to the snappy little fluffy dogs- kind of funny actually. I hope Petsmart will reconsider this- i'm guesing this policy is not necessarily bc they think one dog is always worse than another breed, but more out of a desire to avoid problems with potential customers (money) Answer: I'm shocked too. I've never known Petsmart to be that responsible. Well, it seems like you can still bring a female in heat.:rolleyes: Answer: the pitbull's deepset eyes are difficult to reach in its massive skull, etc. I agree to an extent with the other things you said, but come on. Deep-set eyes? Massive skull? That's not my breed you're talking about. The head should be proportionate to a medium-sized dog's body, and the eyes aren't deep-set. http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/bahamutt99/Loki_Jedi/collar9-24-06-3.jpg Answer: I'm shocked too. I've never known Petsmart to be that responsible. Yep it is always responsible to base decisions on generalizations and stereotypes. Who needs facts or reality. :rolleyes: Every person and dog should be judge as an individual. But I echo the post that said...who would leave their dog with Petsmart? Answer: out of curiousity, what would be so bad about leaving your dog at Petsmart? I dont agree with their policy on leaving out certain breed dogs, it should be based on tempremant as I wrote above Answer: The people at Petsmart have no dog smarts, in my expereinces. They are just people looking for a part time job, read a book, and think they have the dog expereince needed to deal with different dogs day in and day out. And whats even sadder is that people beleive them and end up signing up for thier classes and whatnot. I would never leave my dog with the unquailified people of Petsmart. Answer: The people at Petsmart have no dog smarts, in my expereinces. They are just people looking for a part time job, read a book, and think they have the dog expereince needed to deal with different dogs day in and day out. And whats even sadder is that people beleive them and end up signing up for thier classes and whatnot. I would never leave my dog with the unquailified people of Petsmart. Great post! You mean like taking a 4-6 week training course on dog training, in addition to never owning a dog before, doesn't make you a quality trainer?:rolleyes: Answer: I agree to an extent with the other things you said, but come on. Deep-set eyes? Massive skull? That's not my breed you're talking about. The head should be proportionate to a medium-sized dog's body, and the eyes aren't deep-set. http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/bahamutt99/Loki_Jedi/collar9-24-06-3.jpg Massive skull.....deep set eyes that are difficult to reach? That sounds like a serious medical condition & I am wondering why anyone would need to reach in for the eyeballs?:confused: Answer: Massive skull.....deep set eyes that are difficult to reach? That sounds like a serious medical condition & I am wondering why anyone would need to reach in for the eyeballs?:confused: I find it interesting that Miakoda owns a pit bull and is confused why anyone would need to reach the eyes. Either he's being a little facetious or he's blissfully unaware that dogs, like most animals, depend on reaching their opponent's vulnerable areas during a fight, and that among the most vulnerable points on any mammal is its eyes. A dog whose eyes are contained within a skull of heavier bone and set back further beneath a heavier brow--like Bahamutt's dog shows clearly--has a big advantage in a fight. In short: the dog-fighting breeds were intentionally developed to have a physique that is difficult to inflict damage upon. If you find this confusing or controversial, I really can't help you. Answer: As I said, I agree with you to an extent. Its when you start trying to discuss the finer conformational points that it starts to get shaky. Heavier bone? Eyes set further back? Heavier brow? What are you comparing her to? The APBT is probably one of the most moderate dogs out there, when the standard is adhered to. Its their grit, determination, heart, tenacity, gameness -- whatever you choose to call it -- which makes them tougher opponents than average. They're not impervious to pain or injury; they just work through it. Answer: Obviously I'm clearly comparing it to other breeds/types of dog. Your attempt to dismiss the issue of body type as it relates to this fabled 'gameness' is puzzling. If there is no relationship, why does the dog look as it does? Why aren't pitbulls shaped like Whippets? Why not breed fighting dogs with protuberant eyes like the Pugs? Why don't they have the long muzzles of Irish Setters and the small skull of a collie? Why don't they have the loose skin of a basset and the muscle mass of a Cocker? Pit bulls are not 'game' or brave. They were a combo of terrier snotty and bulldog steadfastness, giving them a joi de vivre desire to do battle and an epic stubborness. People who valued dog-fighting put that mental attitude together with a body designed to withstand punishment and baffle attack. Then they called the dogs who died last 'game.' It's a brutal legacy, and I don't understand the affection pitbull people who claim to abhore the violence of organized dog-fighting have for that word. Answer: No offense, but all the breeds you listed were bred for extremeties of some sort, not moderation. That's like asking why APBTs aren't huge like Great Danes or tiny like Chihuahuas. The breed calls for moderation, because extreme features detract from their ability to do any kind of serious work. The APBT is a dog that can do anything and excel at most of it. He's the ultimate versatile athlete because of his moderation. That's why when you talk about heavier skulls and such, I can't help but shake my head. A heavier, more massive skull would simply be more weight a dog would have to drag around, which would be a hinderance in anything. That doesn't mean some people don't breed for that, but it doesn't make any sense to those who use their dogs for more than to keep the couch from flying around the room. I know you aren't trying to claim I have an affection for the word "gameness." I use it very rarely myself. It was last in the list of 5 different options I mentioned. How many terrier people in general call their dogs game? Or plucky, brave, gritty, stubborn, courageous, tenacious, etc etc etc. Dog people put a value on a temperament like that, no matter what name they call it by. Answer: I have explained my comments repeatedly; if you fail to grasp it, that's fine. If you disagree, that's fine. But I would appreciate it if you didn't attempt to twist my comments. "when you talk about heavier skulls and such, I can't help but shake my head. A heavier, more massive skull would simply be more weight a dog would have to drag around, which would be a hinderance in anything" Did I say that they had such massive heads they would have to 'drag them around'? Wouldn't that significantly offset the advantage in a fight? A Chihuahua might defeat a pitbull who couldn't get his big fat head off the ground. At any rate, I'm done. Have at it, if you want, but please don't bring this whole topic, complete with affected confusion (at least, I'm hoping it's affected) into some whole new thread 3 months down the road. It was tiring enough to argue this time around. Answer: Being game does not mean the dog is a fighter, or even came from dogs that fight. Among dogmen, it might delve more into their history, but there are several breeds known for their gameness, at their particular purposes. And even beyond. It might be tough to argue if you don't know the breed that you're arguing about. Answer: Most businesses, such as groomers, dog day cares and boarding kennels cannot buy insurance for their business if they groom or care for a "Pit Bull" breed. My groomer who also has a dog day care on the premises owns Pit Bulls and she cannot have her dogs on the property at all for grooming or day care. My last groomer could not either. For the most part homeowners cannot buy insurance to cover this breed and some others on their homeowners insurance in many states the liability is high. Answer: There are a FEW companies that are easy on these "blacklisted breeds". I found that Chows and many other breeds are treated just as bad when it comes to insurance. I thought we were past my breed though. Kind of off topic though, my local Petsmart is holding a Chow Chow training day. It is part of a week-long thing they are doing, for stubborn breeds. So many little Chowlings. They often have pit bulls there, in almost every session I've seen, so I don't know if they are getting a special day. Answer: There are a FEW companies that are easy on these "blacklisted breeds". I found that Chows and many other breeds are treated just as bad when it comes to insurance. I worked in the insurance industry for 15 years as an investigator for their attorneys. (been there, done that in a number of "dog bite cases) There might be some low level insurance companies who will insure but I can almost guarantee you that IF an occassion should arise where there is a case, most of those insurance companies probably would not pay off or there will be a limited amount and that's if a certain case ahears to a determined criteria set forth in the policy. In other words, they have certain "if's", "and's" or "buts" and if any of those are even close to the line then they will say, "we do not have to pay because this circumstance is not covered within the boundries of your policy". Most of those low level companies do NOT have blanket coverage insurance for ANY type of bite or attack. i.e. I know of one company that only covers if someone walks onto your property and attacks the dog FIRST and then your dog bites......no kidding....... Answer: It was tiring enough to argue this time around. I you feel its an arguement having to explain yourself when you share highly questionable "facts" about the breed I've been a student of since I was 8 years old, then perhaps you shouldn't share what you don't really know. I'll let this go since you're clearly unwilling to concede to anything those dang Pit Bull owners say about their own breed. But for the benefit of anybody else reading this, here are some supporting quotes (not mine) on the topic of massive skulls and deep-set eyes: "The APBT IS A COMPLETE TOTAL AND BALANCED DOG!- HEAD structure is important but not overwhelmingly so! A massive skull has a negative impact on a breed because of the added weight without proportionate increase in strength." "In actual practice, a dog with a small head with proper structural mechanics, has the advantage and should be preferred to a dog with a massive head that does not fulfill all of the structural requirements." "The head of the APBT should never be exaggerated. Certainly the size of the head is NOT disproportionate to the size of the body." And this is a medium-sized breed. Thus, medium-sized head. And on the eyes: "EYES - Eyes are medium size, round to almond-shaped, and set well apart and low on the skull." Nothing about them being deep-set. It is, however, written directly into the standards of such "normal" breeds as the Doberman, St. Bernard, Akita, Chow Chow, Field Spaniel, and so on. So much for comparing the APBT to other dogs. Answer: :rolleyes: Answer: I find it interesting that Miakoda owns a pit bull and is confused why anyone would need to reach the eyes. Either he's being a little facetious or he's blissfully unaware that dogs, like most animals, depend on reaching their opponent's vulnerable areas during a fight, and that among the most vulnerable points on any mammal is its eyes. A dog whose eyes are contained within a skull of heavier bone and set back further beneath a heavier brow--like Bahamutt's dog shows clearly--has a big advantage in a fight. In short: the dog-fighting breeds were intentionally developed to have a physique that is difficult to inflict damage upon. If you find this confusing or controversial, I really can't help you. Ummm.....In a dog fight, the opposing dogs to not try to gauge each others eyes outs. That's more the actions of 6 years old 2-legged children. Most dogs will go for the jugular area. It's a predator/prey instinct. I'm looking at these pics, & I'm trying my darndest to imagine this dog's head as "massive". She is a true to standard APBT of average weight (somewhere in the low to mid 40's): http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y4/Miakoda15/mybuddy2.jpg & that is a 6 month old she's next to http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y4/Miakoda15/ColeMia.jpg when Cole was around 2 months http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y4/Miakoda15/miakoda.jpg Massive? http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y4/Miakoda15/T1.jpg Answer: http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y4/Miakoda15/oldrexpic.jpg http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y4/Miakoda15/Sukari2.jpg http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y4/Miakoda15/sukariaftersx.jpg Please point out to me what I'm obviously missing here, as I don't believe any of these true to standard American Pit Bull Terriers have "massive" heads. Answer: The "big head" discussion that seems to have taken over this thread misses Casablanca1's original point....that pit bulls were originally bred to be effective dispatchers of other dogs, and that to the extent that the breed still carries these characteristics it is doubtful they should be considered good candidates for doggy play school. Bahamutt99's references were most enlightening on this point [QUOTE=Bahamutt99;587398] "In actual practice, a dog with a small head with proper structural mechanics, has the advantage." I would ask an AMPT breeder what "practice" this medium size but structurally sound structure gives it an "advantage" in besides effectively dispatching other dogs. Here is another quote from the page Bahamautt99 referenced: Wide and deep muzzle is very important. Why wide and deep (not exaggerated)? A straight, box-like muzzle and well developed mandible will not have much to do with the biting power but will endure more punishment. And this from the Temperament Page of the same site (http://www.apbtconformation.com/temperament.htm) Our breed is in mortal danger because too many dogs with fear and human aggression are being bred. People do not realize that temperament is 80% (some say more) genetic in dogs. Regarding aggression in the breed: 1. DOG toward DOG aggression IS a characteristic of most terriers, including the APBT. 2. DOG toward HUMAN aggression IS NOT a characteristic of the APBT at all in any form. Once again, perhaps not a great choice for the doggy day care play pen. I am sure that there are many ABPT that are not dog aggressive, but can certainly not fault Petsmart for making the business decision that they will not try to distinguish which is which. I have no personal knowledge and have had very little interaction with the breed. I do know that backyard bred pits and pit crosses make up a huge percentage of the dogs in the kill shelters in my area, 40 to 60%. This is heartbreaking for anyone who loves dogs, and I imagine particularly so for those who fancy the breed. For some reason more pits and pit mixes are bred than there are people who want to live with one. Answer: I wasn't arguing the point that this breed (APBT not AMPT) doesn't belong in a doggie play group. You couldn't pay me to put my dog in one, unless I got to pick the other dogs involved, and I was there to supervise. I just get tired of people making up their own facts about these dogs. Look how far the "locking jaw" myth went. Answer: To lighten the mood, Mia your baby and dog are both adorable! I just wanna hug em both. Answer: I like her white dog. He kind of reminds me of my Dogo. Answer: Baby is just too cute! Gotta love those "what was that?" eyeballs in the pic! Most businesses, such as groomers, dog day cares and boarding kennels cannot buy insurance for their business if they groom or care for a "Pit Bull" breed. Honestly since petsmart doesn't mind letting ALL dogs in the store to shop and spend money, I didn't even think about insurance reasons for the day care...............that makes sense.............. on their end of it at least. As for my opinion on leaving my dog with petsmart............no I wouldn't, but I don't like the idea of leaving my dogs anywhere without me or hubby. I was just shocked that Petsmart had this policy, and they didn't mind saying so...........Since I do not own any type of "bully breed" I guess I may be a bit naive in the amount of discrimination that actually does go on. Answer: ACooper, yes, most everyday people do not think of the insurance liability, you are correct. But my opinion is that the reason some of the Petsmarts who don't allow certain breeds aren't really brave to say so........I'm nearly 100% positive that they probably just point to their insurance carriers so they don't have to take 100% of the flak. There are some owners of the breed of dog in question that I have seen with my own eyes become totally insensed, flying off the handle with rage at the proported "discrimination" that they didn't even let the manager explain why (at this particular PetSmart) he could not take them in the dog camp. The owners were rude, yelling loudly about BSL and telling the manager they hoped they weren't walking their dog down a dark alley one night and meet him. :rolleyes: Totally uncalled for and didn't do much in the category for changing peoples minds, the owners should have had their dogs taken from them IMHO. Answer: i think that if there is a tempermant test. all dogs should be given a chance |
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