Ethics of breeding certain breeds

Question:
 I am wondering what everyone thinks of this. Do you think it is ethical to breed for certain traits in a dog that can potential and usually cause health problems? An example is the brachycephaly type pug-nosed breeds who have breathing problems like the Pug, the Bulldogs, the Boxer, etc.
I think it is cruel; I understand they are bred for a certain "look" but the poor dogs especially in the summer-time with the hot weather have a hard time breathing. Couldn't they be bred with a slightly less exaggerated look for the better of their health/comfort?
Or am I making a mountain out of a molehill. Do I not understand this correctly? Maybe they don't suffer as much as I think they do since I don't own this type of breed.

Answer:
Many people who breed dogs do not put the health of the dog or the breed as their most important choice. Dogs bred for a certain look, color, size, or body trait tend to suffer from the choice people make. We now breed dogs solely for their hair color, hair quality, size, color, length, weight, width, lenght of legs and the shortness of legs.
Breeding for a longer nose in the breeds mentioned would greatly improve the health of the breeds. Breeding for smaller great danes and irish wolfhounds would extend the life of the breeds. Breeding for a shorter lenght and longer leg in the doxie would help the breed. Their popularity and marketing ability would suffer greatly.
The farther we go from the natural dog the more problems we will have. Some breeds suffer from several man made faults all gathered together in one breed, size, width, nose lenght, bite.

Answer:
Personally I wouldn't breed any of the breeds that are so far detached from the original "dog shape" that they can no longer whelp/exercise/breathe naturally. I think it's rather sad what breeding for these exaggerated physical traits has done to many breeds.

That being said I think there are breeders out there who do manage to breed these dogs and produce healthy, sound puppies. I have no problem with those breeders and I do think that the dogs are adorable. I just wouldn't breed them.

While I don't have a problem with most breeds being bred for appearance, I think when appearance interferes with the dog's ability to live like a dog, it's gone too far. As an example, I saw a few English Bulldogs at a park. They arrived at the same time I did with my dogs, and within 15 minutes of trotting they were gasping for breath. My Border Collie and even my short-nosed, unnatural Papillon were barely panting after running their little butts off. That's when I think there's a problem with the brachy breeds.

Answer:
Do I think it's cruel to breed these dogs? Well, my answer is no. What I think is cruel is when breeders don't breed these breeds with health in mind.
I currently own and love 4 pugs and 1 English Bulldog. My pugs are actually very healthy, hearty dogs. Breathing issues have not been a problem for my dogs. They are all very sound in that area and none of them are related to each other. I have found after being around hundreds of pugs that they rarely have all the breathing problems that the books and info sites state. Yes, they can have these problems, but they just aren't commom.
I think it is a common misconception that brachy breeds can't live life normally. Sure, I have to be more carefull around extreme heat etc. but my dogs can still run, they still play and they rarely pant or show signs of exhaustion. My bulldog is actually the most agile and quick dog I have ever owned. She has her spurts of extreme energy and when she is done, she does not pant. My pugs play fetch and sprint around like wild beasties on a regular basis. I can say that there is nothing painful or cruel about their lives. They are all happy, healthy and content dogs that act like dogs.
I will add that a lot of pug and bulldog owners allow their dogs to become obese. This alone will put a huge amount of stress on the animal and try it's ability to breathe and keep up with life. I think because obesity is so common in these breeds that people often see the obese versions out and about and assume the panting and exhaustion come from breed type alone when this is surely not the issue.
All the pug breeders I know make a good effort to avoid ever breeding a "heavy" breather. These dogs are usually placed as pets and not used in a breeding program. I think it is very important with the brachy breeds to be sure you are breeding the healthiest and most "athletic" examples of the breed...
And if you are still not a believer, then I invite you to come to nationals this year and watch pug agility. There you will see some extreme brachy athletes that have more stamina then they know what to do with, lol! Many of these agility pugs are bred true to standard and also conformation champions. :)

Answer:
Here is a link of pugs doing agility. The pictures are really fun. Just scroll down to watch these guys in action!
http://www.pugbully.no/usa2006ons.html

Answer:
I am torn on this debate. Whilst I believe if you are going to breed you have a responsibility to breed to an exacting standard, sometimes that can be taken too far.
In the case of Persian cats, they have been bred by many to a point where their little squashed in faces are just dangerous to their health. Older-style (now known as `doll-faced' Persians) are much healthier (and prettier, too) but are not recognised as a show standard.
GSDs are heading that way also. They are becoming bigger and bigger and bigger and they were never supposed to be an extra-large dog. Also, the purposeful breeding of the slope in their backs worries me. For any dog genetically prone to hip dysplasia I would think that to breed an exaggerated slope and a markedly angulated hock because it's a trend is just asking for trouble.

Answer:
I'll firmly straddle the fence on this one. My dad has two dogs that may qualify as dogs that should not ethically exist. One is a Tibetan Spanel, a breed that's long-bodied and (while not brachycephalic) short-nosed. The other is a Sheltie, which by virtue of their dense coats can suffer matting and "poopy butt" if not groomed regularly. I like his dogs as individuals, but neither are breeds that I'd own for myself.
That said, I do have a problem with breeding breeds for exaggerated appearances at the expense of functionality. Overly long ears, coats that easily matt, fiddle fronts, shortened muzzles, dwarfism... all very yucky to me. I think breeders could start selecting for less exaggerated traits to improve their stock, but I doubt it will happen. I know at one point, there was a proposed law in England which was going to affect a number of breeds because of bred-in health problems, and the need to crop/dock/remove dewclaws. Don't remember the details, but there were several tens of breeds involved.
But honestly, I've learned a certain viewpoint that overrides those concerns. Respect one's right to own their breed, even if you don't like it. I don't like what has been done to dogs like English Bulldogs, Bassets, Dachshunds, but I would never begrudge a dog owner the right to choose their own companion. Because I don't want them to begrudge me the right to live with a Pit Bull.

Answer:
But honestly, I've learned a certain viewpoint that overrides those concerns. Respect one's right to own their breed, even if you don't like it. I don't like what has been done to dogs like English Bulldogs, Bassets, Dachshunds, but I would never begrudge a dog owner the right to choose their own companion I absolutely agree.

Answer:
Great comments! Love the photos showpug. I guess I have been under the impression that ALL pug-nosed breeds have breathing problems; all of the ones I have been in contact as pets have...I'm glad to hear that you do not have such a problem.

Answer:
Personally I've seen many breeds ruined by AKC shows. A few judges can change the whole picture . Sad .

Answer:
Showpug, I just noticed the pug pics. What neat little dogs! I do have to say that of all the extreme brachycephalic breeds I've seen, the Pugs have been the most sound. I would love to meet your Mona, because nearly every Bulldog I've met has been unsound and horribly weak when it comes to exercise. Most that I know aren't even overweight, they're just plagued with breathing problems, and in the summer they have a difficult time even walking outside for a few minutes since they can't effectively cool the air.

Answer:
Showpug, I just noticed the pug pics. What neat little dogs! I do have to say that of all the extreme brachycephalic breeds I've seen, the Pugs have been the most sound. I would love to meet your Mona, because nearly every Bulldog I've met has been unsound and horribly weak when it comes to exercise. Most that I know aren't even overweight, they're just plagued with breathing problems, and in the summer they have a difficult time even walking outside for a few minutes since they can't effectively cool the air.
Yes, Pug agility is a ton of fun to watch. The pugs really enjoy the challenge and have a lot of fun doing it! I would love to get into it someday with Alice because she is very agile and full of energy. I call her my terrier in a pug body, lol!
Well as far as Mona goes, she would love to meet you too. She's only approaching 7 months, but so far she's a spitfire and can really get up and move whe she wants to! Today I put her out in the x-pen in the yard and she jumped it and was standing at the back door :yikes: I never thought a dog with her shape could ever jump a two foot x-pen without at least a running start, but she proves me wrong everyday, lol!

Answer:
But honestly, I've learned a certain viewpoint that overrides those concerns. Respect one's right to own their breed, even if you don't like it. I don't like what has been done to dogs like English Bulldogs, Bassets, Dachshunds, but I would never begrudge a dog owner the right to choose their own companion. Because I don't want them to begrudge me the right to live with a Pit Bull.
Nicely put- I couldn't agree more!

Answer:
I've been reading up (over the past 2 years) on the history of the EB. And I was shocked to see just how much they have changed just since the late 1950's. All the pictures I've seen of dogs back in that time look very similar to your OEB's (Olde English Bulldogges) of today. Over time one can notice a drastic decrease in heighth, & a larger head size, & much wider chests almost to the point of the dog looking disabled.
I would love to see the EB go back towards looking like more of a bulldog & less like a genetic mess. But people want "rare" & "unique" looking dogs, not dogs that can actually function well. It's sad really.
And for any Georgia fans, Uga fans, or just plain EB fans, the book Dam* Good Dogs about the history of UGA's mascot, Uga, is wonderful! & it's easy to see the recent evolution of the bulldog just in this book alone.

Answer:
I don't like the breeding of dogs that can't breed or whelp naturally. I also don't care for the breeding of dogs with physical traits that affect health (ie: breathing well, being able to RUN, etc) as a normal part of the standard.

Answer:
I don't like the breeding of dogs that can't breed or whelp naturally. I also don't care for the breeding of dogs with physical traits that affect health (ie: breathing well, being able to RUN, etc) as a normal part of the standard.
I totally agree!!! Something doesnt add up to me when it comes to a breed (not individual dogs) having to have the involvement of the human race to give birth. Yes some INDIVIDUAL dogs need help just like humans and there are always complications but for a whole breed to not be able to whelp NATURALLY is...interesting. Not trying to upset anyone who is a breed fancier.

Answer:
Hopefully I'm not sounding ignorant, but what breeds (as a whole) cannot whelp naturally? I know of a few that have C-Sections often.. but not almost all the time.

Answer:
I think one of the only breeds that HAS to have a c-section to deliver is the English Bulldog.
The majority of all the pugs I know free whelp.

Answer:
But honestly, I've learned a certain viewpoint that overrides those concerns. Respect one's right to own their breed, even if you don't like it. I don't like what has been done to dogs like English Bulldogs, Bassets, Dachshunds, but I would never begrudge a dog owner the right to choose their own companion. Because I don't want them to begrudge me the right to live with a Pit Bull.
:hail: Very well said :) .
I have owned 3 brachy breeds ~ 2 Boxers, and now a Frenchie. It is the responsibility of the owner to not let them overheat. No long walks in hot weather... we enjoy sitting in the shade of a tree in hot weather, and take walks early in the morning and late at night. I would imagine it comes down to responsible dog ownership with regards to each and every one of our breeds' quirks.

Answer:
Those Pugs are just darling. Those worried little faces seem to say "PLEASE DONT LET ME MESS UP PLEASE LET ME LAND THIS PLEASE OH PLEASE PLEASE"
I agree that breeders who keep health in mind first are the only people who should be breeding these dogs. They are much too fragile with their health issues to be bred randomly to whatever dog is in their breed just to have pups. Unfortunately, it happens all too much.
Provided, even from the best breeders, you can get the worst health problem every now and then, it's a given with these breeds. And it doesn't really reflect directly on the breeder if it happens so sparingly.

Answer:
I think one of the only breeds that HAS to have a c-section to deliver is the English Bulldog.

The majority of all the pugs I know free whelp.

I have read that the French Bulldog is another C-section breed. Even heard Martha Stewart discussing it with the breeder of her Frenchies one morning.

Answer:
And for any Georgia fans, Uga fans, or just plain EB fans, the book Dam* Good Dogs about the history of UGA's mascot, Uga, is wonderful! & it's easy to see the recent evolution of the bulldog just in this book alone.
We are Georgia graduates and huge Georgia fans. You're absolutely right. If all the Uga's were English Bulldogs, (and I think they were) they have certainly changed over time. The original Uga looks more fit than the present-day one. Of course, the current one is probably reaching retirement age.

Answer:
I am wondering what everyone thinks of this. Do you think it is ethical to breed for certain traits in a dog that can potential and usually cause health problems? An example is the brachycephaly type pug-nosed breeds who have breathing problems like the Pug, the Bulldogs, the Boxer, etc.
I think it is cruel; I understand they are bred for a certain "look" but the poor dogs especially in the summer-time with the hot weather have a hard time breathing. Couldn't they be bred with a slightly less exaggerated look for the better of their health/comfort?
Or am I making a mountain out of a molehill. Do I not understand this correctly? Maybe they don't suffer as much as I think they do since I don't own this type of breed.
You, like many others, have been sucked into the Animal Rights Black Hole of twisted viewpoints regarding the selective breeding of dogs and other domestic animals.
This is how they divide and conquer.
If you think that outlawing selective breeding will further the welfare of domestic animals, you are seriously wrong.
It's only a stepping stone to the ultimate AR goal. No domestic animals.

Answer:
Not all people who believe in animal rights have that goal in mind.

Answer:
You, like many others, have been sucked into the Animal Rights Black Hole of twisted viewpoints regarding the selective breeding of dogs and other domestic animals.
This is how they divide and conquer.
If you think that outlawing selective breeding will further the welfare of domestic animals, you are seriously wrong.
It's only a stepping stone to the ultimate AR goal. No domestic animals.
Wow, where did that come from?! Yikes. Why are you jumping on me like that? Has someone been sipping a little Kool Aid?

My post could not have been more "gentle" in my inquiry. I said is it ETHICAL and never said it should be OUTLAWED. I don't even know any animal rights people. I simply think it COULD be unethical to purposely breed a dog with health problems. I am learning different view points. Whose post did you read anyway because yours makes no sense when you are quoting mine. I simply want to learn and hear what others think.

AND you did not even reply to my question just attacked me. So I guess you are on board with people breeding whatever they want even if they produce unhealthy animals, or am I reading into your post.

Answer:
We are Georgia graduates and huge Georgia fans. You're absolutely right. If all the Uga's were English Bulldogs, (and I think they were) they have certainly changed over time. The original Uga looks more fit than the present-day one. Of course, the current one is probably reaching retirement age.
First off....GEAUX LSU!! :D
And yes, all the Ugas have been EBs & it's amazing to see the evolution of them. But I've found that just by looking at pictures in EB books of history that the breed has changed a lot & for the worse in recent years.
The original Uga had a very similar body structure to our OEB. Here's a side by side comparison of our OEB & our now deceased EB:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y4/Miakoda15/chippereddie.jpg
Our OEB is actually a very athletic animal (although he does tend to overheat faster than the APBTs on hot days). He goes for 2 mile walk/jogs & then still comes home with leftover energy for 30 minutes of fetch, flirtpole activity or springpole activity. He's borderline downright hyperactive & MUST have something to do at all times. Our EB was the polar opposite. Hopping off the couch & going 20 ft. to the water bowl took almost all his energy & he had to stop & lie down for a short break on his way back to the couch. The short run after a poop in the yard was his exercise for the day & he wanted nothing more than that. Any amount of walking resulted in serious breathing issues. And this was an almost AKC champion showdog but all the judges said his nose wasn't "pushed in enough" to their liking. :rolleyes: Geez, had it been any more "in" it would've been inverted.

Answer:
Hey Miakoda,
I was going to mention the OEB too. I've got one at home, and though the standards are a little haphazard and there is a little too much room for error, I think that this breed makes sense ... re-creating the bull of old, to be healthier, much less breathing problems, and over a dog that can actually get around, and probably do what it was bred to do years and years ago. In my personal opinion, I think that EB breeders should be breeding towards a goal of health overall. I do believe the goals should be longer muzzle, smaller heads, correct angulation, and of course, testing for genetic diseases, to which their is a huge list for this poor dog (heart, knees, hips, spine, eyes, etc).
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y109/juliesillustration/MackJuly20051.jpg
Not the greatest pic, and he's young there, so he's filled out a little more. Not my idea of the best OEB (he's too lanky, looks more mastiff than bull and his head isn't quite big enough - hermes line) but you can see the major different in structure and over all well being, which I think EB breeders should be working towards.
Shannerson,
I guess I am in agreement with most people here. I always said that if a pup can only be born by c-section, well, this may sound harsh, but it wasn't meant to be. And I am not talking emergency c-section on breeds that can whelp naturally, I'm talking about the brach breeds who require c-sections as if they were a natural thing. I'm not saying that these breeds should be banned, however, I am saying that breeders need to re-think where their breed is headed and what they can do to "better it" healthwise. Don't get me wrong, Frenchies are one of my favorite breeds, and I do like bulldogs (but not the ones with the huge nose ropes, and poor rear angualtion), but I really do think its time that breeders buckled down, and tried to produce "better" dogs. JMO :)

Answer:
First off....GEAUX LSU!! :D
Well, we don't 'hate' LSU like we do some others....(gators)!! In fact, I usually root for the Tigers if they're not playing UGA.
I mostly joined this thread because Uga was mentioned, and I guess I straddle the fence on this topic.
I absolutely love the looks and the temperaments of the English bulldogs and Pugs. When a thread goes around asking for our favorite 3 or 5 breeds, these 2 always end up in mine. I have owned a Pug.
I guess I agree with the opinion that breeders should be trying to breed towards healthier dogs. I don't know that I would ever go out and buy one of these breeds due to the potential health issues (but our Pug had no breathing problems at all), but I sure would hate to see them go away. I would think most of the health issues could be addressed by the breeders.
Part of the reason that I'm not sure that I would buy one of these breeds, though, is because I'm not sure if I'll go through a breeder again for any breed of dog. We adopted from the shelter and have been very happy and probably will do that the next time we get a puppy or dog. Beyond that, opinions and situations change, so I don't know what I'll be looking for that much farther down the road.

Answer:
Not all people who believe in animal rights have that goal in mind.
Perhaps individuals do not, but people should be aware that this IS the goal of ALL the organizations such as PETA, ALF, etc.
I am all for Animal Welfare.
I will fight against animal RIGHTS.

Answer:
Wow. Fighting against the rights of an animal. How lovely.

Answer:
Wow. Fighting against the rights of an animal. How lovely.
Chinchow- the idea of animal rights vs. animal welfare is that *animal rights* lean more towards the direction of PETA-types. IE: it is unethical to OWN animals because they shouldn't be OWNED at all- they should have the same rights as a human being. While this no doubt, SOUNDS really good, in effect, the animal *rights* path is the one that eventually destroys domestic animal ownership.
I don't personally view my dogs as property- but in order to have any sort of control or decisions regarding their welfare, I NEED them to be viewed as such by the government. Those that support animal *welfare* recognize this. They aren't out to end domestic pet ownership- which I'm sure YOU wouldn't like either. They still DO care that animals are treated humanely.
THAT is what Red is talking about.

Answer:
Well said, Tempura. I agree.

Answer:
You, like many others, have been sucked into the Animal Rights Black Hole of twisted viewpoints regarding the selective breeding of dogs and other domestic animals. This is how they divide and conquer. If you think that outlawing selective breeding will further the welfare of domestic animals, you are seriously wrong. It's only a stepping stone to the ultimate AR goal. No domestic animals.
I get your point about groups such as PETA, but I wish you hadn't phrased it like this. There is entirely too much of this going around - when Person A disagree with Person B, A attributes B's ideas/position/theory not to a simple difference of opinion but to B's enslavement to groupthink--the media has brainwashed B about pit bulls, the animal rights people have sucked B into their black hole, etc.

Answer:
Well, we don't 'hate' LSU like we do some others....(gators)!! In fact, I usually root for the Tigers if they're not playing UGA.
I mostly joined this thread because Uga was mentioned, and I guess I straddle the fence on this topic.
I absolutely love the looks and the temperaments of the English bulldogs and Pugs. When a thread goes around asking for our favorite 3 or 5 breeds, these 2 always end up in mine. I have owned a Pug.
I guess I agree with the opinion that breeders should be trying to breed towards healthier dogs. I don't know that I would ever go out and buy one of these breeds due to the potential health issues (but our Pug had no breathing problems at all), but I sure would hate to see them go away. I would think most of the health issues could be addressed by the breeders.
Part of the reason that I'm not sure that I would buy one of these breeds, though, is because I'm not sure if I'll go through a breeder again for any breed of dog. We adopted from the shelter and have been very happy and probably will do that the next time we get a puppy or dog. Beyond that, opinions and situations change, so I don't know what I'll be looking for that much farther down the road.
I don't think the EB needs to go away. I think it needs to go back to how it used to be. Breeders nowadays are going for lower to the ground, wider dogs with larger heads with a more "pushed in" face because that's also what judges are placing now. IMO, they need to get them back to a breed that can actually function well on a daily basis & improve the health issues. By breeding for only size & looks, breeders will only kill off the breed in a few short years rather than preserve it.
And BrandyB, here are a few more pics for you: :D
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y4/Miakoda15/chipperpose.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y4/Miakoda15/chipper2.jpg

Answer:
Miakoda,
Very nice dogge you have there. I love his head piece, and his ears especially! He looks like a tank! Just the way they're suppose to. Thanks for posting those! :D

Answer:
Miakoda,
Very nice dogge you have there. I love his head piece, and his ears especially! He looks like a tank! Just the way they're suppose to. Thanks for posting those! :D
No problem! I love showing off some of the dogs. :D

Answer:
I'm just responding to the OP here...
As a RL Pug Breeder/Owner/Handler and the owner of a Pet Frenchie, I think you have been misinformed as to the severity of the problems.
Like any dog, when it is extremely hot, you have to be careful to keep them from overheating. But, in my experience with the breed (which is rather extensive), it's more the humidity that is a problem than anything. But even so - mine can go out in the summer and run around for a bit and play without a problem. My Frenchie LOVES the heat - if it's 90 degrees outside, he'll find a sunny spot and go nap in it. He just loves it.
As someone else posted, Pugs can run agility without a problem... most of them anyways. And I plan on running my specials boy in it as soon as he is retired from the Conformation ring.
Sorry if this isn't very clearly written - I'm kind of tired and I don't think I'm thinking clearly. haha...

Answer:
I do find it a little strange that some breed standard traits can be health liabilities and just look good. But, having owned a pug (and a poorly bred one at that), I'd have to say the breathing problems of squished nose dogs aren't that bad. Sure, my pug made snuffling noises and didn't like walks on hot days. But that's what air conditioning is for. :p
Still, though, I wish that some breeds' traits were a little more practical. For example, I'd love it if Shih-Tzus had less squished faces so their eyes weren't so prone to problems. And why do maltese, in all their cute fluffy glory, have to be so darn WHITE? :lol-sign:

Answer:
I am wondering what everyone thinks of this. Do you think it is ethical to breed for certain traits in a dog that can potential and usually cause health problems?
I'm just going to pull out this one question and give my opinion.
I think it's absolutely wrong for breeders to breed for any traits that usually cause health problems. I have met some chows who have been bred for such a heavy head and heavy bone that they wheeze as they walk and can barely make it around a show ring (and for a chow, that's not very far) .. and yet, unfortunately, some of these chows end up as champions. I think it's pathetic, personally.
I wouldn't pick out any specific breeds and say "this entire breed is wrong" .. but there ARE breeders in various breeds who go for extremes to the detriment of the dogs. I find this wrong. It has nothing to do with animal right groups. To me, it's 100% about the dogs and what's being done to them. And I'm not just talking about breathing problems. We can probably all think of a color/coat/shape in a number of breeds that creates problems and yet some breeders continue to produce these overdone dogs because they like the look or can make some money from it.
Personally I'd like to see all dogs be able to live a long healthy life without breathing problems, leg problems, etc. .. and to be dogs that can run and play and be active like dogs are supposed to be.
Melanie and the gang in Alaska

Answer:
Personally I've seen many breeds ruined by AKC shows. A few judges can change the whole picture . Sad .
People always seem to blame the judges, and only AKC ones at that, as if they were the ones who whelped the dogs, and these trends exist nowhere else. It is NOT just a judge problem, but starts with the breeder.

Answer:
If judges did not reward poorly bred dogs with grand champion titles, people would not do it.
On a somewhat related note, why on earth the did AKC make brindle boston bull terriers a disqualifying color? There have been brindle bostons forever, and breeding black and whites to black and whites tends to create deaf animals. :confused: Personally, I prefer the brindle ones when they can be found.

Answer:
Dont'f forget, BREED CLUBS are ahead of AKC. They have ahold of the standards before the kennel clubs do. ;)

Answer:
Dont'f forget, BREED CLUBS are ahead of AKC. They have ahold of the standards before the kennel clubs do. ;)
Agreed.

Answer:
But the AKC appoints the judges for the all breed shows.
It goes in circles really. If I entered a German line dog in Westminister, they would chase me out of the ring, yet those dogs are arguably closer to the American standard than our own GSDs. Field line setters? You couldn't get in the door. (I know of little beyond GSDs and sporting dogs when it comes to showing)
The breeders keep breeding more angular dogs, or for more feathering and size and the judges keep rewarding it.
Whats easier to fix? Tell ALL the breeders to reverse their last 20 years of work and bring only "classic" looking dogs, or start replacing judges who keep selecting the most over done individuals. Even if they just chose the medium range of American show dogs, GSDs and Setters would slowly start coming back from their extremes.

Answer:
If judges did not reward poorly bred dogs with grand champion titles, people would not do it.
On a somewhat related note, why on earth the did AKC make brindle boston bull terriers a disqualifying color? There have been brindle bostons forever, and breeding black and whites to black and whites tends to create deaf animals. :confused: Personally, I prefer the brindle ones when they can be found.
Actually, I think brindles are allowed as long as they have the required white markings.
Color and Markings
Brindle, seal, or black with white markings. Brindle is preferred ONLY if all other qualities are equal. (Note: SEAL DEFINED. Seal appears black except it has a red cast when viewed in the sun or bright light.) Disqualify: Solid black, solid brindle or solid seal without required white markings. Gray or liver colors.
Required Markings: White muzzle band, white blaze between the eyes, white forechest.
Desired Markings: White muzzle band, even white blaze between the eyes and over the head, white collar, white forechest, white on part or whole of forelegs and hind legs below the hocks. (Note: A representative specimen should not be penalized for not possessing "Desired Markings."
A dog with a preponderance of white on the head or body must possess sufficient merit otherwise to counteract its deficiencies.
http://www.akc.org/breeds/boston_terrier/index.cfm
I also am a fan of the brindles, but they are hard to come by.

Answer:
Whats easier to fix? Tell ALL the breeders to reverse their last 20 years of work and bring only "classic" looking dogs, or start replacing judges who keep selecting the most over done individuals. Even if they just chose the medium range of American show dogs, GSDs and Setters would slowly start coming back from their extremes.
I've always been a supporter of a system in which breeds/assignments/licenses can be taken away from judges for poor judging, like the judge who put up a special for Best of Breed literally without ever having put his hands on the dog (he brought the BOB class in - 3 specials dogs, 1 specials bitch, the Winners Dog, and the Winners Bitch - looked at their heads/fronts and profiles, took them around the ring 1.5 times... and then pointed to quite possible the worst special in the ring for Best of Breed - who happened to have a well known handler on him) or the judge who - and I kid you not - put up a ONE EYED class dog for Winners Dog and BEST OF BREED over some nice specials (at least one was a BIS winner)... that dog later had the breed win stripped from him.
"Mistakes" like that are inexcusable.
However - I do not like the idea of starting to remove breeds simply because a judge who is "selecting the most ___ individuals". Standards are purposely left somewhat open for interpretation - that means that your idea of overdone is not going to be the same as the next breeder, owner, or handler... so I don't think its appropriate to start removing judges simply because they are putting up dogs that you, personally, don't like.

Answer:
I've always been a supporter of a system in which breeds/assignments/licenses can be taken away from judges for poor judging, like the judge who put up a special for Best of Breed literally without ever having put his hands on the dog (he brought the BOB class in - 3 specials dogs, 1 specials bitch, the Winners Dog, and the Winners Bitch - looked at their heads/fronts and profiles, took them around the ring 1.5 times... and then pointed to quite possible the worst special in the ring for Best of Breed - who happened to have a well known handler on him) or the judge who - and I kid you not - put up a ONE EYED class dog for Winners Dog and BEST OF BREED over some nice specials (at least one was a BIS winner)... that dog later had the breed win stripped from him.
"Mistakes" like that are inexcusable.
However - I do not like the idea of starting to remove breeds simply because a judge who is "selecting the most ___ individuals". Standards are purposely left somewhat open for interpretation - that means that your idea of overdone is not going to be the same as the next breeder, owner, or handler... so I don't think its appropriate to start removing judges simply because they are putting up dogs that you, personally, don't like.
We know the notorious one eyed pug all too well. ;) lol!

Answer:
Now this might be getting a bit off topic and onto intent and history vs show dogs, but to illustrate my point...
English Setter Standard on Coat:
Flat without curl or wooliness. Feathering on ears, chest, abdomen, underside of thighs, back of all legs and on the tail of good length but not so excessive as to hide true lines and movement or to affect the dog's appearance or function as a sporting dog.
A Champion Setter
http://www.users.bigpond.com/bluemooska/corey.1.jpg
Compare that to field line setters who can still do their job, or to historical setter paintings. That much fur ruins function unless you get the scissors out.

Answer:
It's no secret the 99.9% of the so called "working" dogs that are shown in the AKC couldn't do their job if their life depended on it. Compare all the true working dogs to their show dog version & the differences can't be ingored. Even the greyound is just an empty shell of it's true racing brother.

Answer:
It's no secret the 99.9% of the so called "working" dogs that are shown in the AKC couldn't do their job if their life depended on it. Compare all the true working dogs to their show dog version & the differences can't be ingored. Even the greyound is just an empty shell of it's true racing brother.
I have a friend that shows Deerhounds in AKC conformation and those very same dogs are VERY successful with lure coursing. I think to say that 99.9% of the dogs is way too general of a statement! I think you would be surprised at the number of fanciers that actually do care about the total package.

Answer:
It's no secret the 99.9% of the so called "working" dogs that are shown in the AKC couldn't do their job if their life depended on it. Compare all the true working dogs to their show dog version & the differences can't be ingored. Even the greyound is just an empty shell of it's true racing brother.
The breeder I got my Shibas from has an Akita that works as a perimeter dog on her considerable acreage. This dog has scared off foxes, deer, bear, even cougars. (As well as human trespassers). In her own words she said, "without him, I wouldn't be able to live here." Now here's a working dog that can do EXACTLY what he was bred for.
Several of her Shibas are successful wild boar hunters as well. ;) Almost all of them are fabulous dispatchers of vermin and wild fowl.
OF COURSE there are those breeds out there that have been absolutely sidetracked- but I wouldn't say that it's 99.9% of them.

Answer:
I think one of the only breeds that HAS to have a c-section to deliver is the English Bulldog.
The majority of all the pugs I know free whelp.
Not strictly true, my Bulldog has had 2 litters both self whelped.
She is now spayed and enjoying her retirement from being a mummy and show dog.:)

Answer:
Not strictly true, my Bulldog has had 2 litters both self whelped.
She is now spayed and enjoying her retirement from being a mummy and show dog.:)
That is fantastic! I wish I would have the guts to let my bullie free whelp if I decide to breed her, but I don't. She will be a c-section no matter what.

Answer:
I wouldn't say 99.9% of the show dogs couldn't do the job they were bred for, but I DO feel that the working ability of herding breeds and some working breeds has been greatly diminished in show lines. Most show-bred Border Collies are worthless on farms. Show-bred Filas are soft-tempered and massive, they couldn't do the job they were originally bred to do.

Can there be AKC registered working dogs? Of course. I'm sure there are even some show-bred dogs who can pull their own weight on a farm. But AKC (or any conformation-based venue) isn't about working ability or what's actually inside that beautiful head, and that is why a lot of people in *working* breeds don't support conformation-based venues. Asking the show ring to pay attention to function is like asking the fashion industry to focus on inner beauty. It just doesn't work. :p Pretty wins, standards be damned. That's why so many breeds have gotten so overdone.

Answer:
The first litter she made the decision, it was all over by 6.30 am, woke up and was faced with 5 cleaned up, feeding healthy baby bulldogs.
The second litter, 2 seasons later she did it again, obviously didn't fancy an operation !! :lol-sign:

Answer:
I wouldn't say 99.9% of the show dogs couldn't do the job they were bred for, but I DO feel that the working ability of herding breeds and some working breeds has been greatly diminished in show lines. Most show-bred Border Collies are worthless on farms. Show-bred Filas are soft-tempered and massive, they couldn't do the job they were originally bred to do.

Can there be AKC registered working dogs? Of course. I'm sure there are even some show-bred dogs who can pull their own weight on a farm. But AKC (or any conformation-based venue) isn't about working ability or what's actually inside that beautiful head, and that is why a lot of people in *working* breeds don't support conformation-based venues. Asking the show ring to pay attention to function is like asking the fashion industry to focus on inner beauty. It just doesn't work. :p Pretty wins, standards be damned. That's why so many breeds have gotten so overdone.
Good post. I apologize for my exaggerated percentage, but I still stand by that the vast majority of those "working" dogs shown in the AKC workign classes couldn't do their job well if at alll.
And I LOVE the quote that I put in bold. Mind if I use it sometime?:D

Answer:
Oh, I see your point and I totally agree with you. Heck even Greyhounds bred for show can't run like the ones bred to race. The structure of the show dog is just all wrong, apparently. Plus the fact that the show dogs don't seem to have the drive of the track racers. It's just odd to me . . .
And sure you can, lol

Answer:
Honestly, I feel there HAS to be a happy medium somewhere, and breeders should strive for that as much as possible. I know plenty of nice, well-meaning breeders who just went off the deep-end with showing their dogs and value a CH title 1000x more than any working title. Breeders also tend to take the standard and exaggerate it as much as possible, as seen in the "sloped" topline of show GSD's - which is beyond irresponsible. I do believe that kennel clubs have a responsibility to promote the working dog just as much/more than promoting the show dog... unfortunately the AKC fails miserably at that, IMHO.
More example picssss! One of these dogs is not like the others:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v357/gonzoo/herding.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v357/gonzoo/summer06089.jpg
http://www.bosiersbordercollies.com/files/Meg_herding_A.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v357/gonzoo/summer06092.jpg
Only one of these dogs is a show Champion with no working titles/merits/experience/drive whatsoever. The other 3 have herding titles, but no show titles. =D Reeaally difficult, right?
My point is that Border Collies come in a variety of sizes/colors/looks, but the one parallel of all 3 of the workings dogs is the intensity, the look of intelligence, the general outline, & the style. Which that show Champion has none of. It is unmistakable.
IMO, a BC breeder can show their dogs as they please, but working drive should never be compromised & should completely come before appearance, as a priority. They're working dogs, not companion dogs... and that goes for a LOT of other breeds! If we're talking about health problems being bred into dogs for show purposes, let's also talk about: GSD's, Labs, etc. Not just the bully breeds are being bred to dangerous extremes in the show world.

Answer:
the vast majority of those "working" dogs shown in the AKC workign classes couldn't do their job well if at alll.
100% backed. C:

Answer:
Not to take this too far off topic, but I feel that the "happy medium" in BCs* is breeding dogs that can do the job. If they have incorrect structure for the job, they won't be as good at it and therefore usually won't be bred. A dog built like the show dogs would be all bone and coat, they'd be ready to collapse after an outrun because they just aren't built right for work. If you look at the top trial winners or highly efficient farm dogs, they're all built similarly. They LOOK different, but structurally there are a lot of similarities. None of them are built like that show champion, for starters. XD
Breeding any breed "for the show ring" (ie: fads instead of the standard) is breeding AWAY from function. I've seen Rottweilers that lumber around the ring like Mastiffs, Dobermans that don't have enough substance to stop an attacking butterfly, and Golden Retrievers that would sink and drown in a koi pond. I'm not saying they're all like that, but it is apparent to me that fads are often more important in the show ring than the standard is. I believe this accounts for at least SOME of the "transformation" breeds like Bulldogs and GSDs and Border Collies have gone through.
*I know this has nothing to do with the brachy breeds and no I'm not insanely centered on my breed and yes I know there are other breeds out there. :D I just use Border Collies as an example because that's what a I and lot of other people are familiar with.

Answer:
Hey RD, I think you are right, and the happy medium could be applied to most dogs, except, obviously, the ones who were created as strictly companions.
I will bring up another example, though I know there are those that would be in disagreement, the Jack Russell Terrier. The AKC/CKC have now recognize the JRT for show purposes as the PRT (parson russell terrier). Don't be fooled, these are the same dog with the same blood lines, however, these breeders who have turned PRT 8 times out of 10 (I say that because I know that there are still some good ones out there) only care about showing, champions, points and nothing else. The JRT, like the border, is a working dog. Yes, they do make wonderful companions in the right hands, but they are a working dog through and through, and when you loose that drive, that body structure, that ability to breed within a larger size range (10 to 15 inches JRTCC/JRTCA standard) you loose the dog. These are dogs of substance and grit, and with strictly breeding for show, as many PRT breeders will be and are doing, you loose the essense that is this breed (not unlike the borders, and can be seen in the bulldog, shepherd, lab, golden etc. etc.). This is why I support the Jack Russell Terrier Club of Canada/America, who holds the heritage and working value of this breed very high.
So, I suppose the above also fits with many breeds in the AKC/CKC.
I think as long as breeders don't breed strictly for show, and focus somewhat on the dogs ability, well, as a dog, then we would perhaps start to see a happy medium. I think if breeders in the show ring didn't put so much emphsis on looks, but rather function with form following, i think things would begin to look up for some breeds. Breeding strictly for show causes extremes to be thrown into the mix, or fads and frillies. Case in point, what this thread was about, the extremes of the bulldogs.This breed started as a medium dog, straight legged, straigth tailed, minimal to medium undershot jaw, with a attitude of go go, and a physical ability to match it. Yes, the breeders needed to remove some aggressiveness from the lines, but then it just snowballed into what we have today - a dog that HAS to be born c-section, one that can have many health issues including, but not limited to, heart, patella, hip, spine, eyes, cancers etc. A dog that can need cosmetic surgury to live comfortably, and a dog, that really, isn't a dog anymore. Don't get me wrong, I do like bulldogs, but there are some out there that are so extreme that they are just rediculous. And you can see this at begining stages with quite a few breeds within our kennel clubs. One last example is the heavy set, almost fat looking labs in the show ring now. I'm not sure where that type even came from (some say english type labs or goldens) but it really looks as though if those dogs took to the water, they'd need a life jacket.
Anyway, I hope what I've said makes sense, kind of off topic, but I got back on in the end! :D

Answer:
I truly do agree that there are a lot of breeders out there that breed for the wrong reason. I just don't consider it fair to generalize. I guess I am lucky to know the breeders of working, hunting and hound breeds that I do. They all trial their dogs in other venues and believe in a well rounded and capable dog. I guess it's all in who you know that helps you develop your opinion on the issue...

Answer:
I truly do agree that there are a lot of breeders out there that breed for the wrong reason. I just don't consider it fair to generalize. I guess I am lucky to know the breeders of working, hunting and hound breeds that I do. They all trial their dogs in other venues and believe in a well rounded and capable dog. I guess it's all in who you know that helps you develop your opinion on the issue...
That's where I stand on the issue as well. All the people I'm really involved with in both Shibas and Akitas work their dogs in MULTIPLE arenas with a great deal of success. That's not to say that I don't KNOW that problems exist- (and I'm by no means exempting my own breed, there are plenty of people that have cute, fluffy, toy-like Shibas), it's just that I've met and developed relationships with SO many people involved in conformation that still realize that the TOTAL dog is more than just a showdog- and actively breed for that animal. You can bet your bottom dollar that THESE are the people I obtain my own lines from, and when it comes time to start my breeding program, I too will work my dogs in more than just conformation.