Desperate Situation with my puppyQuestion:Hi everyone I,m new on here this is my first post. and I,m despertly hoping some of you can help me. Alright I have a 9 month old male Native American Indian Dog. Who I apsolutly adore but the trouble is he,s completly terrified of people and other dogs. He was like this from the moment we got him He was shipped to me from out of state somthing I,ll never do again It was a huge mistake. but anyway when we first got him it took 2 months before he,d stop hidding when somone was anywhere near. and the slightest of corrections would send him racing out of the room in terror. now he,s fine with us and we couldn,t have a sweeter more adorable puppy when just our family is around. the problem is when somone comes over or knocks at the door he runs and hides and is a trembling wreck until they leave He won,t take treats from anyone he dosn,t now super well and poops if anyone who,s not in our family pets him. I can,t take him for walks because if we see a person or another dog he completly goes crazy bolting and biting his leash trying to get away and he,s so huge I can barley hold him. It,s a complete diaster. I,ve been talking to a dog trainer and going to puppy school for months but so far nothing is working. The people at puppy school who were so great and encoraging at first are slowley shaking there heads and saying if it was them They,d give him a time limit and have gotten rid of him by now. Its driving me completly crazy to see my puppy making himself so miserable and missing out on so much because he,s so scared. I can,t figure out how this fear he has can be so extreme he was never abused or anything like that and we got him straight from his breeder at 12 weeks. So anyone who has any suggestions or some magical cure that they used for there shy dog please let me now it would be greatly appreciated.anything you,ve ever heard of that might help him I don,t care how odd it is I,d like to hear it just in case. and Thanks for reading this. Answer: First, Hi and Welcome To Chazhound! Good to have you, and you have come to the right place! :) Now I cannot give you any advice, seeing as I have never had to deal with a dog like this before BUT I know others have and will be able to give you lots of help :) Good Luck! :D Answer: oh that poor thing :( I cant really help, i just wanted to say props to you for working so hard with him, and not just getting rid of him!! I'm sure some people on here can help :)! Answer: I'm going to move this to the training forum where more people will see it. good luck! Answer: Calling Dr2Little.... Answer: Thats tough! It may be a temperment problem OR it could be due to the breeder not socializing the puppies. Socialization is going to be the key here. Its going to be slow and often feel as though your not only not progressing but getting worse at times. I would continue to go to puppy classes only sit on the sidelines and let your pup watch at a distance. what you want to do is make socialization a "norm". The more you do it the more your pup should relax. Remember your emotions will play alot into his reaction. Be as confident as you want him to be. Take him for walks where there are other people like a walking or jogging trail but only go to a part that isnt as well used. Have friends bring over their pets and keep them on leash. Be in a room where he has to be there but can put space between him and your friend and her dog. Allow your pup to relax and move at his pace. This may take alot of time. A skittish dog like that will not come around easily or quickly. He may never be a social happy dog but will learn that its ok to be around other people and dogs by putting him in non threatening situations. The more often you do this the more normal it will be. I cannot guarantee a turn around at all and I highly suggest a animal behaviorist before you give up. Keep your hope up. Answer: I'm sorry to hear about your situation. Excessively fearful dogs can be very difficult to deal and I would suggest to seek the advice of a professional behaviourist, not just a trainer. You may be looking at a lack of socialization on the part of the breeder, genetics (fearfulness can be passed on) and perhaps a tramatic event that happened to your dog that you never picked up on (no fault of your own). Is there anything besides food that your dog goes wild about? Like a ball, frisbee a certain game etc.? What is your exact response when your dog becomes fearful - have you corrected him, have you told him he'll be ok, have you ignored him etc? Are you positive that he won't take any kind of food during the periods when he is frightened? What you need to do with this dog, is to teach him that people are good, and fun to be around, and the best way to teach this is with either food, or a much loved toy/game. Corrections for fearfulness in this case probably have done more damage than good (not saying that this is your fault because there are certain instances where correcting fear helps) because as you correct when he acts fearful around a person, he is most likely associating that person with the physical or verbal correction - in his mind from this, people = pain or yelling, so he would tend to shy away even more to avoid these situatations. If you can find a treat, or toy that he seems to have an interest in during his fear periods, you have a way to control his behaviour. You want to work slowly with him, and not introduce him to too much stimulus at once. Try to limit his fear experieces to once a day for now. In this time, we'll say, while you are on a walk, when ever you see him start to react to a person/dog, no matter how far away, take out the treat/toy and feed/play. You want him to associate people/dogs with fun, not fear. This will be a long process, and shouldn't be rushed, and gradually you can work up to closer distances, and mmore stimulation, depending on how you see his progress coming along. You need to be consistant so that he thinks that people/dogs = food/toy. This is a postive method that I have seen work on quite a few dogs ... although, as I said, the progress can be slow, and you don't want to rush it with a dog that is this fearful. Take your time, be patient, and don't over stimulate him. Watch for his reations, and use his reactions as a guide to when you can up the "socialization/stimulation". I hope that this helps a bit. Good luck, and see if you can search out a behaviourist in your area willing to help out. :) Answer: I agree with Momof7 and Brandib. This sounds like the "breeder" you got him from gave no socialization experiences to the pups. You got him at about 12 weeks? So that is about the end of the critical period where oodles of socializaiton should have taken place. I agree also that it can be a temperament issue and/or both. I have my doubts as to expecting great improvements but very gradual exposure at distances where the dog is comfortable, however far that may be from people or dogs and reinforce moments of calm is your only chance. Do not fuss over him when he's afraid. Act brave yourself and let that lead him a little bit. Don't force or rush. Even sitting on the sidelines may be too stressful for him in a class situation....so many dogs and people. You might find a quieter, more low key situation to start and when he is comfortable at that level, gradually get closer to some stimuli and when he's Ok with that, then again creep forward. If he is excessively fearful at some level, it means you need to go back to where he was able to be reinforced for "bravery." Be sure and reinforce with attention and a treat when he shows calm and fearless behavior and don't react when he cowers. I would try my utmost to avoid fearful situations for now. Socialization needs to be made as pleasant as possible. The more he gets frightened, the more he learns that people, dogs, environments are indeed something to fear. The more he gets reinforced with yummy treats and happy times (when he's placed in a situation that won't likely cause fear...ie: distance) the more he'll tend to progress. Set him up to succeed so he can be reinforced many times for "brave" and happy encounters. Distance, low key stimuli at first, only adding to it as he succeeds. I absolutely would not use the slightest harsh correction type training with this dog. Use motivation and reward.....distracting, coaxing, enticing, giving alternative behaviors which you can teach him, like sit, let's go, shake....little tricks are fun and build confidence. If he'll play, teach him a little tug of war and let him win. Just teach him to give you things by trading him for a treat. Teach down after you teach him a few things. That position makes him feel more vulnerable and he doesn't need that right now. If he lies down on his own, you can praise him softly and give a treat. After a few times, add in the word, "down" when he lies down. That's called capturing a behavior and it's a very gentle, easy way for him to learn things. Here's a great way to teach him things which will be very gentle. Remember not to make a big reaction when he is fearful. Try to act like things aren't a big deal. You don't want to reinforce his fearfulness more than it already is. http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/index.htm I wish you the best. And yes, kudos for sticking with it. I have heard of some pretty amazing miracles and you just never know what your hard work may overcome in him. Take it slowly and you'll need extra patience, I suspect. Best of luck. Answer: Well, again welcome to Chaz :) ! My original post disappeared when the thread was moved somehow :( . I also said that he was denied proper socialization and you should have gotten him at 8 weeks of age. He most likely had no proper social skills from the breeder as well. I found what they are, Beautiful dog but it does look very exotic like (wolfy) I high-lighted some info about how some people who are breeding them aren't breeding the true breed and crossing them with wolves and coyotes. About Native American Indian Dogs Mature Weight: 60 -100 pounds Height" Color: White with broken black pattern, Brown, brown/black, tortoise-shell, and the rare reddish colored ones. Ears: Pricked, erect Feet: Webbed between toes Eyes: Amber, brown Tail: Straight Behavior: Affectionate, loyal, non-aggressive, adaptable, very intelligent, focused, love to please, learn quickly, and like a challenge Weaknesses: None known Today we are seeing a renewed interest in the Native American Indian dog. Being brought back from near extinction just a few years ago, these dogs have found homes in all fifty states. Their number had dwindled to a mere 2000(approximately) but once again their numbers are steadily rising. It is exciting to think that these dogs are a living part of American history. Families who own (and invariably love) Native American Indian Dogs can't seem to stop complimenting them. Owners cite their loyalty, intelligence, adaptability, and easy going "mellow" personality. Modern day hunters find them the best sports dogs they have ever owned. They report their tracking ability as phenomenal. Search and rescue teams are also impressed with the Native American Dog. There are some who have tried to reinvent the breed by crossing domestic dogs with coyotes, wolves, and other wild undomesticated animals. These are not authentic Native American Indian Dogs and have the potential to be dangerous. Know what you are purchasing. Be sure your puppy is registered with the Native American Indian Dog Registry and the National Kennel Club. All of our dogs are pedigreed and have both of these registrations. Answer: Hi rain22, and welcome to the forum. Given what you've posted, I would say the blame for this puppy's fear lies directly with the breeder. A good breeder breeds for a good temperament, and then spends a great deal of time from a very young age (4-5 weeks) handling and socializing the puppies. This is more than just keeping them at home and handling them once in awhile. A 12 week old puppy should have been going places and doing things for at least 6 weeks already. It should have been exposed to various sounds and interactions. It should have met dozens of strangers. I'm guessing your puppy didn't get any of that. Because the personality of a dog is mostly developed prior to 14-16 weeks of age, it's going to be a tough road bringing your dog out of this. But it's not impossible .. I had a very fearful dog that was about 18 weeks old when I got her and it took a few years for her to come out of it really well, but she turned into a very loving dog that was willing to go to strangers to be petted. She was one of those that trembled and hid behind me at every chance. My way of changing that was to take her lots of places, including classes, but to not expect her to do what was going on in the class. My goal was to sit or stand quietly against a wall (so she couldn't hide behind me) and to praise and reinforce with treats any time she made a positive move. This meant that if we were 30 feet away from another person or dog, and she even glanced their way she was rewarded. A step towards them was a reward. It was a very slow process and I couldn't get frustrated at ANY point because she'd pick up on that and it would make her worse instead of better. With your dog, you may have to start out by going to a parking lot where you can be a long way from people - but where your dog can still see people. Park at the far end, take some really good treats (steak, etc.) and then stand with him on leash outside of the vehicle. Back up against the vehicle so that he can't get behind you. And then wait patiently and quietly. Let him look around. When he looks towards the people and he doesn't react, praise him happily and give him a yummy treat (this works best if you haven't fed him yet that day so he's a bit hungry). If he likes a toy and will play with you with the toy, that's a great thing to use too. Continue to reward him when he looks at the people and doesn't react, and more reward if he actually takes a step toward them. If he does well at that distance, you might move a tiny bit closer but you want to stop BEFORE you reach his threshold - meaning you don't want to ever get close enough so he gets upset at this point. The idea is to always make the sight of another person a good thing, and if he's upset then it's no longer a good thing to him. Make the session short and successful and then leave. The next time, park a few feet closer to the people. You may still be way out in the north 40 of the parking lot, but that's fine. You have to start slowly with a dog that's so fearful. If you reach a spot where he is acting upset, then the next time don't go that close. Make sure he is relaxed and able to handle it at each distance before moving in closer the next time. Keep in mind if you change parking lots you may have to start farther out again. Dogs will learn to accept something in one area but still have it freak them out in another .. until you do it in LOTS of places, he will probably still act fearful at a level he can handle someplace familiar. Getting the help of a behaviorist is a really good thing to do. A behaviorist should be able to assess your dog and set up a plan of action as to how to help you through this. A training class might be way too much for your dog at this point and most trainers aren't really set up to help a real fearful dog. Best of luck to you. Handling a fearful dog is not easy. It was certainly a learning experience for me and I've been training seriously since the 80's. I wouldn't choose a fearful dog again but I don't regret having had her because I feel I learned a lot from the experience. Keeping calm, accepting what they can handle, and never getting angry with them is important. Corrections are a definite NO with a dog that is so fearful, too. That will only increase the problem. Melanie and the gang in Alaska Answer: I posted in her other thread and agree !!! Definately started with the breeder . Answer: Beware, this one long post. I doubt this is the breeders doing, aside form the fact that she never should have breed these dogs in the first place. Native American Indian Dogs on the whole are known for being very fearful and aloof. I had a Board and Train case about a year ago with a Native American Indian Dog. Same situation as you're describing. The poor dog was terrified of everything, everyone, and she'd just slink to the ground and curl up in a ball, or worse yet she'd drag her owner back home if she was on leash for a walk and something spooked her. I'm talking full on belly-drag for this poor owner, bless her she never let go of the leash but the dog was very strong and had no intention of stopping. Someone getting their mail across the street from them would be enough to send her into a panic. This dog was fearful from the moment they got her home from the breeder, no amount of socialization on their part or puppy classes to bring her out of her shell helped. She was simply a basket case and it was due to genentics. The breeder could have socialized the heck out of those pups and I doubt they'd have turned out any different. Anyway, so this little ball of nervous engery came to me for a month of board and train. Her owners were fed up, they'd tried training classes, they had a private in home trainer work with them. Nothing had helped. They couldn't have anyone over without putting the dog in another room and even then she'd freak out. If she was outside in her own fenced yard and the neighbor came out into his yard, the dog would freak and jump the fence to get away. Keep in mind the neighbor is his his own yard and never even looked at her. And of course the horrible leash pulling which made it impossible to take her anywhere for socialization. The first two days she was with me she never left her crate. Not for food, not for potty time, she simply would not budge, so I didn't try to force her. She eventually got hungry enough to take some turky I tossed to her, and then hungry enough to eat it from my hand. And then we could start training. Here's a brief rundown of what I did with this dog and I'll share the results below. All food was hand fed. She got no meals in a dish, every morsel came from me. She was on leash at all times and attached to me. I moved. She moved. If she wasn't on leash she was in her crate. Once she was hungry enough to really want some turkey I taught her how to sit, then she had to sit for everything she wanted. In and out of doorways, every morself of food, in and out of the crate, before I clipped the leash on her and before I took it off. In other words NOTHING happened untill sat first. She learned what a clicker was. Once she learned that doing something would actually earn her either a "life reward" or a food reward she was very eager to work and teaching her basic commands came much easier. Once she knew a handful of commands I'd mix it up and ask for different ones through out the day for her rewards. Keep in mind, even at this point I could not pet her. She wasn't aggressive, but she would shy away and try to escape if I made any move to pet her or give her affection. So our relationship was strictly a working one. It was about day ten at this point. She was working for me well in the house and we made the switch to working outside. She freaked out. She tried to drag me back inside. She got a prong collar. No more pulling. We moved on. Worked on basic commands outside, taught her how to heel. And remember she's still not getting any meals, she only eats her kibble when she works for it, so she has some good motivation to pay attention to me. Once she was consistant outside, we started taking field trips. I'll admit that I flooded her. On purpose. We heeled downtown, at the pet store, anywhere that would take us. The first five field trips she was glued to my leg and about an inch away from having a sh*t fit. I igored her. We kept walking and kept taking field trips. Eventually, I think around the 8th one she was comfortable enough to start doing some commands out in public and actually take the kibble I offfered. We played puppy ping pong. Which is an approach retreat game. If she's afraid of something we'd take one step toward it, stop, click/treat then turn and walk away. Turn around and go one step further, stop, click/treat, turn and walk away. And so on untill she would approach the object and sniff it. We went on nearly twenty field trips sometimes multiple ones on each day during the time she was with me. I never asked her to allow anyone to touch her or talk to her. In my opinion she was not and may have never been ready for that. The results: She was able to be out in public, pass strangers and behave in a civilized manner. She was still stressed, but it was at a low enough level that she could focus on me, run though her commands, and play Puppy Ping Pong for some kibble. She came when called every time, she knew how to sit, down, stay, heel and leave it. She did them like a pro. But she only did them because she was hungry, not becuase she wanted to please me or because she enjoyed it. That's not what this breed is about. They're aloof by nature and you won't find one with Golden Retriever personality. They don't give a hoot if you're happy with them or not. The day before she was scheduled to go home we were outside, I had her on a long line while she ran zoomies around me, and she came up to me and licked my face. She let me pet her and even seemed to enjoy it. I nearly cried. She went back to her owners the next day, who had been trained in how to interact with her extensivly. They'd practiced giving commands on my dogs, on a green dog, and on several other willing furry helpers. They were well prepared. She came back to me a month later after they admitted they wern't cut out for this long term. She stayed with me another two months before going to live with another trainer who wanted to take her on as a project for the rest of her life. The moral of this story? Native American Indian Dogs do not make good pets. Sure, there are exceptions to every rule and I'm sure someone, somewhere has one that's the perfect pet, but trust me, that's not your dog by the sounds of it. Over the course of working with this dog I talked with people who rescued NAIDS and heard many stories of these same situations. Stories of NAIDS that were so fearful and untrusting that their owners eventually put them to sleep or dropped them off at the pound. I'd bet money that the way your dog behaving is genetic, and it'll take some serious, hard core training to even put a dent in her fearful behavior. And that's something you'll have to do for the rest of her life. What I did with my B&T dog was nothing special, but it was the fact that she had consistant, clear leadership, and a clear way to for me to communicate with her that made the difference. I didn't train her for a week and then get distracted, she was trained everyday, through-out the day, and we activly worked on her fears all the time instead of sheltering her. If you don't think you're cut out for that then I'd suggest searching for a trainer that might be willing to take her on as a project. Because it'lll do her no good to stay with someone who either cannot or will not give her the best chance toward a semi-normal life by working with her 100% Don't feel bad if you don't think this is for you. The family who had the dog I worked with spend thousands on training for her, spent over a grand on the dog itself, spent countless hours practicing with her and learning the correct way to handle her, their dog was even fully trained and they STILL could not provide the constant, on-going training and leadership that she needed. Not many people can. If you know you're up to the challange and you have every intention of helping her work through this no matter how long or hard it is then great, she's lucky she ended up with you. Find yourself a trainer that specializes in fearful dogs and has experience with this breed. Which might be a hard search. But they're out there. You're average obedience trainer probably won't have a clue how to deal with this. You need someone who know how to tackle this problem specifically and has a track record of success. I hope you're able to help your dog, but if you're not up to it, rest assured that you are not the only unsuspecting person to be taken by the "breeders" who sell these dogs. They aren't pets. They're more akin to a wild animal and you've got a lifetime of trying to tame and socialize what's close to a feral dog. It's not fun, but the rewards if you do it right can be huge. If you don't mind shareing, I'm interested to know what breeder you got him from. I'm willing to bet it's the same one my former clients got theirs from too. Answer: Wow Silverpaws! What a story. I've never heard of this breed. This does not sound like a domestic dog at all. Who would want one of these anyhow? It is amazing that you had one in your charge and that you were able to do anything with it. Wow! Answer: The breeders who sell them are very good at making it seem like they're the perfect pet. Since they aren't a well known breed it easy to lure in unsuspecting puppy buyers. The dog I described was the most challenging dog I've ever worked with when it comes to fearful behavior. She was so far beyond anything I'd ever seen, but somehow we managed to learn from each other. She had some of the most amazing dog skills, and I learned a lot about dog behavior and body language from watching her interact with my dogs. If only she was as people friendly as she was dog friendly she would have been a great pet. Unfortunetly that was not in the cards for her. Last I heard from her new trainer she was doing really well and is a demo dog for her classes. That's after 8 months of constant training and socialization. It can be done. But it's a truckload of work to get to that point when you're starting with a dog that's so terrified it can barely move. Answer: Silverpawz, that was a great post. I was honestly really surprised that you used a prong, but other than that, brilliant work! Answer: Wow, the http://www.dogbreedinfo.com page for the NAID sounds like it was written by a BYB. It has the bit about them being great for allergy sufferers and everything! http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/nativeamericanindiandog.htm Answer: I was honestly really surprised that you used a prong I know a prong wouldn't be the first choice for many trainers, but I admit that I use them on fearful dogs IF that dog has a pulling habit as severe as the one I worked with. It was litterally dangerous for both the dog and the person on the other end of the leash. And the way she would flail and panic made using a head halter a no-go, she'd ingure herself for sure with all the random flying about she was doing in her attempt to escape. She got two corrections, which she did herself by hitting the end of the leash, she stopped, looked around, and decided that pulling wasn't in her best interest anymore. After that she didn't get another correction the entire time she wore the collar, even though she wore it often when out in public. It worked for her, but I certainly won't say it would work for every dog. I'd have prefered to go with a head halter, but she just flailed around too much. Too dangerous. I'd be happy if I never had another case as hard as that one! She wore me out. LOL Answer: True NAIDs died out a really really long time ago. There are a few bybs selling them that claim they are from the original lines, and it's simply not possible. The OP is lucky the breeder kept it 'so long'. I've read many other people's accounts including one 'breeders' site that if you will not pick it up at 6 weeks you are charged a boarding fee from then on out by the day. The mix to make the dogs is also never seemingly the same twice. You can go visit some of these bybs, and 6 months later go back and the puppies look very very different than thy did the first time. They aren't breeding true- they just keep breeding in other dogs. There used to be a site with a warning about NAIDs but it's been taken down in the last year. It had some of the best info, since some stressed out owners wanting help had mentioned the same things listed. Answer: WOW. Good post Silverpawz! Very informative, thanks! ~Tucker Answer: My original post disappeared when the thread was moved somehow :( Red, it might not have been...(I thought that too for my post)...I think the thread my have been re-started here rather than actually moved, so there are now two with the same title. Here's the original with the additional/earlier info': http://www.chazhound.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43124 Del. Answer: True NAIDs died out a really really long time ago. There are a few bybs selling them that claim they are from the original lines, and it's simply not possible. The OP is lucky the breeder kept it 'so long'. I've read many other people's accounts including one 'breeders' site that if you will not pick it up at 6 weeks you are charged a boarding fee from then on out by the day. The mix to make the dogs is also never seemingly the same twice. You can go visit some of these bybs, and 6 months later go back and the puppies look very very different than thy did the first time. They aren't breeding true- they just keep breeding in other dogs. There used to be a site with a warning about NAIDs but it's been taken down in the last year. It had some of the best info, since some stressed out owners wanting help had mentioned the same things listed. I actually posted this warning on the first page of the thread:There are some who have tried to reinvent the breed by crossing domestic dogs with coyotes, wolves, and other wild undomesticated animals. These are not authentic Native American Indian Dogs and have the potential to be dangerous. Know what you are purchasing. Be sure your puppy is registered with the Native American Indian Dog Registry and the National Kennel Club. All of our dogs are pedigreed and have both of these registrations I got it off of what looked to be a very reputables breeders website when I was researching the breed, kind of disturbing :( Answer: OMG I,m so so sorry I completly forgot I posted on here. Thank you everyone so much for your very helpful replies. But I,m afraid I,m going to have to find a new home for him. Christmas was the biggest nightmare in the world. I won,t even go into the details. but after all this time we havn,t seen any real improvment. Silverpaws thanks for your story. It sounds most awefully to familar. Thats just how my puppy is someone across the street can send him flying upstairs to hide. I know I didn,t do near enough research on this breed. and I,m so embaressed and feel aweful about giving up on him. This is funny in a way I suppose I used to be horrified at the people who got expensive dogs from breeders then just got rid of them when they didn,t work. Now thats exactly what I,m doing. I love the dog training I,m taking him to and am nearly certain I couldn,t find a better one in our area. Even if he was apsolutly perfectly trained I just don,t see his temperment ever really fitting in with my life style, I hope I can find him a great home. well I won,t give him away until I do. He is a wonderful dog as long as we don,t have visitors or go anywhere. I got him from willoway puppies. I think they,ve retired now. Anyway Thanks again everyone. Answer: rain, I'm so sorry you are considering finding him a new home. If you must, please make sure it will be someone who knows the whole picture and has the patience to take him on. Maybe check with your trainer, they may know of someone. Good luck to you diane Answer: rain, placing this dog will be near impossible. You took in this dog not knowing what would develop. The only responsible thing to do when trying to re-home him is to educate the new owner on everything about his personality, which is why you are giving him up, i suspect. Just because the "breeders" have "retired" if they are responsible and ethical they should still assist you with this, and/or take them in themselves. Just my opinion. |
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