I hate when the U.S. gets involvedQuestion:I hate when the U.S gets involved with foreign breeds. They have messed up the Canaan Dogs so much. The original coloring was shades of red/ white. Black/whites were looked down upon and still are in Israel where they are from and still run wild. And are originally from. This is a Israeli bred Canaan and notice the international title. http://myrnash0.tripod.com/shaarhagai-canaandogs/id24.html This is a U.S. bred Canaan and notice only AKC. http://www.rivroc.com/spock.htm Answer: you sure have alot of hate in your heart. Answer: I personally like the black and white coloring better, but I understand the red is the original color before AKC interviened... I never really thought about that, but it does seem kind of obvious now. I like all breeds before the AKC gets a hold of them and their poplarity rises! Answer: shame on AKC for soo many things. Answer: Another great example of this topic: http://www.terrierman.com/rosettestoruin.htm. The first set of pictures alone should make your jaw drop. Answer: arg! why do they go and mess up everything? Answer: The difference in AKC show Siberians in comparison to racing Siberians is ridiculous: One of my buddy's male racing Sibes purchased from the top racing kennel in North America: http://www.teamollie.com/tigger.jpg And here is a male Siberian that has done a lot of winning, from the top show kennel in North America: http://www.pageweb.com/innisfre/broker01.jpg Answer: ANY deviation from the working form of a canine creates a less than perfect, physically incapable specimen. The looks/appearance of a working dog is nowhere near as important to a working kennel as it is to people whom breed for show (looks). I truly wish that they would ban showing animals for appearance and go back to the original working dog events. Your pretty much guaranteed that the pretty examples of any modern (altered) breed would NOT cut the mustard at a true working show. Conformation SHOULD be secondary to workability. But, to many people think there is a need to change breeds for their own satisfaction/glory, so that will never happen. Sad really, that dogs are being made into show pieces instead of the working companions that they were in the past. Answer: ANY deviation from the working form of a canine creates a less than perfect, physically incapable specimen. The looks/appearance of a working dog is nowhere near as important to a working kennel as it is to people whom breed for show (looks). I truly wish that they would ban showing animals for appearance and go back to the original working dog events. Your pretty much guaranteed that the pretty examples of any modern (altered) breed would NOT cut the mustard at a true working show. Conformation SHOULD be secondary to workability. But, to many people think there is a need to change breeds for their own satisfaction/glory, so that will never happen. Sad really, that dogs are being made into show pieces instead of the working companions that they were in the past. Good post. And it's not just the fault of the AKC. You MUST blame the breeders who breed the dogs that way. The AKC doesn't force anyone to breed crappy dogs. Answer: Good post. And it's not just the fault of the AKC. You MUST blame the breeders who breed the dogs that way. The AKC doesn't force anyone to breed crappy dogs. I was about to start the AKC doesn't ruin dog breeds, the breeders ruin dog breeds. But I see it's been done for me. :) Breeders who start breeding for purely aesthetics and forget about workability for dog breeds, especially working ones, are the ones that cause the splits and 'ruin' the breeds. Not all breeds go into the AKC and get screwed up, but a lot of them do. But then again, they get messed up in many registries, not just the US. Shelties, old time- http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h126/Gloriedogz/here.jpg But it was in england where they started crossing them with collies to get more showy dogs. Papillons have changed a lot since the original ones, but I guess it's not as important since they're not a working breed. The original was largely a drop eared, solid colored spaniel. The erect ears came about, they think as a mutation that was popular with the nobility so it was bred for more. Now the original type- the phalene, is much rarer than the papillon, especially in the US. Solid is no longer allowed. One thing I like though, is there's not a set type for America and then a set type for everywhere else. A papillon anywhere basically looks like a papillon anywhere else. Papillons- http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h126/Gloriedogz/oldtimes.jpg The paintings are from the 1600-1700s, and the dog is the first BIS winner in the AKC in the 30s. I like dog breed history, if you can't tell. xD Answer: Another great example of this topic: http://www.terrierman.com/rosettestoruin.htm. The first set of pictures alone should make your jaw drop. I've been looking for this link for ages. Thanks :D Answer: you MUST blame the breeders who breed the dogs that way. YES, YES, YES. I really think the MAJOR problem with newly-introduced breeds that get "ruined by the AKC" is the number of people that jump into them because they see it as an "easy" way to do some big winning. There are always those judges that want to be the first to put up a newly introduced breed for BIS, and people who care more about winning than dogs understand that getting in there EARLY increases your chances of not only being the one to pilot a dog to such success, but of also being recognized as being "instrumental in bringing breed x to recognition." I'm sure a lot of people who didn't give a rats a$$ about BCs as a breed saw the potential to turn these fast, athletic animals into flashy black and white, heavily coated speed demons. For these people working ability is a non-entity- WINNING ability is EVERYTHING. And a few tweaks here and there in any breed can turn it from a functional working dog into a pretty show piece. It's when people who are primarily HANDLERS get ahold of breeds and begin a program without having a clue (or a care) as to the importance of an animal's function that things REALLY go downhill. Shame on the breeders that sell these people dogs with breeding rights, and shame on these people for caring more about ribbons than health and function. It's why breeds like ESS are in SUCH trouble. And this is why it drives me nuts to see Shibas that are jumping up and down, barking their heads off and prancing in the ring. These dogs are SUPPOSED to be aloof, dignified and quiet. But I see time and time again judges who DON'T KNOW BETTER putting up dogs that "ask for the win." Functionality be damned, it's all about showmanship. I hate seeing judges get grandfathered in- but it happens all too often, and then they put up Shibas that act like Sporting dogs. This is a HUGE problem, and I think it's safe to say that it is a problem affecting nearly ALL of our AKC accepted breeds. It really has nothing to do with the registry- but with the people INVOLVED in the registry. And the breed clubs. It is the breed club's responsibility to PROTECT their breed. Those involved in their national breed club should be at the forefront of this fight- making sure that their own lines aren't getting diluted into pretty, dumb animals, and making sure that club members understand the importance of breeding for function and temperament FIRST. Answer: What does the U.S have do with what some breeders do...?? Answer: To clarify what I was saying before- AKC acceptance is NOT the immediate "death toll" of breed functionality. What AKC acceptance DOES do is immediately increase the visibility of an accepted breed. Increased visibility means increased interest, increased interest means more people wanting to own and show said breed, that they previously never knew existed. But these people have to get their breeding stock FROM someone- it is up to those ORIGINAL breeders to suss out those that would do harm to their breed- people who are NOT suited to owning said dog. Limited registration, co-ownerships, contracts (stating what WORKING requirements must be fulfilled in order for breeding to occur) or simple refusal to sell are just a few things you can do to keep control of your own breeding stock, and thus *help* ensure that your breed has at least one line with some brains in it. ;) I'm wracking my brain trying to think up a *feasible* way that breed clubs could mandate some sort of a working requirement in order for dogs to have CH. status recognized- but the logistics of it are pretty mind boggling. So what you really have to look at is that the BEST conformation breeders (and pretty much the only ones we should see as worthy of obtaining show dogs from), are the ones that voluntarily choose to work/exhibit their dogs in some sort of performance event that tests workability. It goes without saying that people who are breeding dogs FOR working ability alone (ie: working cattle stations that require ACDs, farms with sheep), are already doing this. The working ability of the dog (and its health/temperament) are the *only* vital attributes. They don't care that "Laddie" doesn't have lovely button ears. I have no problems with this. Just as I have no problems with a gorgeous show dog that ALSO has brains and working-smarts. And Jess I agree- the US has nothing to do with it. There are show breeders world-wide, in all sorts of registries that have destroyed breeds. It isn't just the United States and the AKC. Answer: What would be interesting is if AKC shows were more like 2-3 day events. Day #1: Dog get's assessed, conformation. Day #2: Dog is tested for working ability in the breeds original purpose. Each part of the show would account equally when ranking the dogs. That way, even if you had the most BEAUTIFUL BC, it wouldn't get ranked as high due to it's horrid work ethic. ~Tucker Answer: I'd love to see it set up that way... Answer: What would be interesting is if AKC shows were more like 2-3 day events. Day #1: Dog get's assessed, conformation. Day #2: Dog is tested for working ability in the breeds original purpose. Each part of the show would account equally when ranking the dogs. That way, even if you had the most BEAUTIFUL BC, it wouldn't get ranked as high due to it's horrid work ethic. ~Tucker Just curious on how they'd evalutate breeds like the peke? Answer: How easily can they jump up onto a waiting lap? :D Answer: the thing with the coat colors is ummm you dont want a black and white dog working in the israeli desert for weeks on end alone. ;) Answer: Working test first! Then the show. By having the show second you assure that people are not breeding excessive coat then shaving it down for the field. Why do Setters and Spaniels have fur that nearly reaches the ground? Surely something out in the woods does not want to be soaked for the whole day or have so many burrs and seeds stuck to them that they mat before the day is over. Companion breeds can go visit a school or nursing home, like an advanced good citizen test. That would take care of half the people eating Chis and Poms that seem so prevalent. Answer: If the AKC really has its hands clean from the destruction of working breeds, why is it that there conformation standards are different from FCI (international) standards concerning the GSD? I don't know about other breeds, don't follow them that much. WHy is it that their "champion" dogs don't even follow the conformation rules they have set forth? Why do they keep putting judges up to judge shows and giving them certification to do the judging when they put up substandard dogs to win? Why is it the judges the AKC trains to judge the shows can't keep a breed to a standard? If the substandard dogs wouldn't win, they wouldn't be breeding them. Its a two part problem, and breeders and the AKC share equally as far as I'm concerned, well that and the people that want GSD's that look pretty and can't work. I guess they'll never realize that they don't have a GSD, they have a shell of a fine working animal. Answer: If the AKC really has its hands clean from the destruction of working breeds, why is it that there conformation standards are different from FCI (international) standards concerning the GSD? I don't know about other breeds, don't follow them that much. WHy is it that their "champion" dogs don't even follow the conformation rules they have set forth? Why do they keep putting judges up to judge shows and giving them certification to do the judging when they put up substandard dogs to win? Why is it the judges the AKC trains to judge the shows can't keep a breed to a standard? If the substandard dogs wouldn't win, they wouldn't be breeding them. Its a two part problem, and breeders and the AKC share equally as far as I'm concerned, well that and the people that want GSD's that look pretty and can't work. I guess they'll never realize that they don't have a GSD, they have a shell of a fine working animal. The AKC is in business for money....nothing else. They don't really care about the conservation of working breeds, or any other breed for that matter. If that was the case, why are they the go-to registry for puppy mills all across the country? We all know AKC dogs sell for more than CKC or UKC dogs.:rolleyes: No one is saying they are innocent, but just because they allow something to happen, & even encourage it by placing these poor quality dogs in shows, doesn't mean that breeders HAVE to conform to these breeding practices. Answer: No one is saying they are innocent, but just because they allow something to happen, & even encourage it by placing these poor quality dogs in shows, doesn't mean that breeders HAVE to conform to these breeding practices. True, but as a hugely influential registry, it doesn't have the 'no-fault' shield it always claims. If puppy milling itself were a crime, the AKC would be the big fish the police would eventually target, because they're the organization that essentially makes the whole nasty business possible. We can blame individual breeders, millers and buyers, but shutting down kennels and educating individuals will never have the effect of a change of mission at the AKC. Answer: Imo, it's the breeders at specific kennels that begin to value conformation titles as the most important 'proof' of their breeding stock that is the problem. Breed clubs have an awful lot of influence regarding the standard and what the judges see as the best examples of the breed. You can't totally blame the judges, either. They get presented day to day with a majority of show line dogs. It's what they're used to, so they are more than likely going to put those dogs up. Sure, they should learn, but honestly, no one's really going out and educating them. I for one have little problem with the show coats on gundogs provided the structure and drive of the dog is still there. You can always cut it, and plus, many dogs in the ring do trials after their show career is over. Their coat isn't nearly as worn as a dog out of the ring, also attributing to the growth. The bigger issues are the breeds that have lost drive and structure. I'd love for the AKC to emphasize sporting and working more, but it's not going to happen. So to me, it falls on the breeders to preserve the breed as they see it. AKC registration will promote showing in the breed, and some breeders will fall to that. No one is forced to. Sorry if I'm sounding a little annoyed, it's just that it gets kind of old hearing about how American lined dogs are nothing except beauty queens. I constantly feel like I have to defend my dogs' intelligence and worthiness to people. I know plenty of show lined dogs that still have what it takes to do what the breed was bred to do. Albeit they aren't border collies or german shepherds, which are some of the more debated breeds. Yeah, the AKC registry isn't set up to promote both working ability and conformation ability, some registries have done a bit better at maintaining this, some haven't. There's problems with them all. In a perfect world, excellence in both would be achievable, and that's what breeders should be aiming for, but in reality, it can't be achieved with the way things are right now, and I doubt they'll change. People will just have to understand that other breeders will value aspects that they themselves don't whether they like it or not. Working dog breeders will cringe at the sight of a show dog of the breed, and show breeders will cringe at the sight of a working dog. Neither of them see the other as the true representative of the breed. I'm not saying one is more right than the other- we'll leave my opinions out of it. This is one of the main reasons I decided against becoming involved in a herding breed, although I love them to death. Miakoda, I'm assuming the CKC you're talking about is the Canadian Kennel Club? Just clarifying. I don't put any kind of stock into the continental kennel club. Answer: The AKC is in business for money....nothing else. They don't really care about the conservation of working breeds, or any other breed for that matter. If that was the case, why are they the go-to registry for puppy mills all across the country? We all know AKC dogs sell for more than CKC or UKC dogs.:rolleyes: No one is saying they are innocent, but just because they allow something to happen, & even encourage it by placing these poor quality dogs in shows, doesn't mean that breeders HAVE to conform to these breeding practices. Exactly the AKC (as stupid as it seems to me) actually MEANS something. They stand as a keeper for the breeds, their Reputation to the general public is of a body that keeps breeds pure and correct, when in fact they seem to care more about money. I know money makes the world go round, but some ethics have to be involved. as sad as it is, lots of these breeders are associated directly with the judges and top members in the AKC. They scratch each others backs to make more money, and it makes me sick. Answer: Exactly the AKC (as stupid as it seems to me) actually MEANS something. They stand as a keeper for the breeds, their Reputation to the general public is of a body that keeps breeds pure and correct, when in fact they seem to care more about money. I know money makes the world go round, but some ethics have to be involved. as sad as it is, lots of these breeders are associated directly with the judges and top members in the AKC. They scratch each others backs to make more money, and it makes me sick. That happens everywhere. Coughpoliticscough.... Corruption at it's best. Answer: Imo, it's the breeders at specific kennels that begin to value conformation titles as the most important 'proof' of their breeding stock that is the problem. Breed clubs have an awful lot of influence regarding the standard and what the judges see as the best examples of the breed. You can't totally blame the judges, either. They get presented day to day with a majority of show line dogs. It's what they're used to, so they are more than likely going to put those dogs up. Sure, they should learn, but honestly, no one's really going out and educating them. I for one have little problem with the show coats on gundogs provided the structure and drive of the dog is still there. You can always cut it, and plus, many dogs in the ring do trials after their show career is over. Their coat isn't nearly as worn as a dog out of the ring, also attributing to the growth. The bigger issues are the breeds that have lost drive and structure. I'd love for the AKC to emphasize sporting and working more, but it's not going to happen. So to me, it falls on the breeders to preserve the breed as they see it. AKC registration will promote showing in the breed, and some breeders will fall to that. No one is forced to. Sorry if I'm sounding a little annoyed, it's just that it gets kind of old hearing about how American lined dogs are nothing except beauty queens. I constantly feel like I have to defend my dogs' intelligence and worthiness to people. I know plenty of show lined dogs that still have what it takes to do what the breed was bred to do. Albeit they aren't border collies or german shepherds, which are some of the more debated breeds. Yeah, the AKC registry isn't set up to promote both working ability and conformation ability, some registries have done a bit better at maintaining this, some haven't. There's problems with them all. In a perfect world, excellence in both would be achievable, and that's what breeders should be aiming for, but in reality, it can't be achieved with the way things are right now, and I doubt they'll change. People will just have to understand that other breeders will value aspects that they themselves don't whether they like it or not. Working dog breeders will cringe at the sight of a show dog of the breed, and show breeders will cringe at the site of a working dog. Neither of them see the other as the true representative of the breed. I'm not saying one is more right than the other- we'll leave my opinions out of it. This is one of the main reasons I decided against becoming involved in a herding breed, although I love them to death. Miakoda, I'm assuming the CKC you're talking about is the Canadian Kennel Club? Just clarifying. I don't put any kind of stock into the continental kennel club. __________________ Great post! Answer: it's not just the US who ruin breeds, it also happens all over the world. i think one of the worst is the american show bred GSD's. people who breed dogs should show there dogs in the sport that there dog was bred for or in the activity. That working sibe was lovely, much better looking than the show one. I don't know much about showing in america as i live in the UK but over here many people who do show there dogs also do sports with them eg. one welshie (mwa) who won best gundog in crufts also works and does gundog trials as they have to keep it tone up. Answer: The AKC only cares about money, which should be clear from their recent attempt to register puppy mill dogs with them. How about the Eukabana championships? Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Eukabana a "crap" food with corn as the main ingredient? But there their name is on the championship. The AKC may be "only a registery", but it's their judges who award the championships to animals who so widely deviate from the working lines of the breed that they can't fulfill the breed's original function. They're creating demand for these animals by awarding them. Some people say, "That's the fault of the breeders, the judges have no working specimens of the breed in the ring to award, but they would really prefer to see working dogs." Balderdash. A field English setter or labrador retriever would be laughed out of the ring. Having read through the minutes of the AKC's meetings, which are posted on their website, I'm frankly appalled by their attitude towards many aspects of dogs and showing. Answer: Americans aren't the only ones ruining dogs - I dislike what certain breeders in the UK has done to Dobermans - waaay oversized, clunky - many of them look like smooth coated Rottweilers with long noses. The thing is, not *every* American breeder is ruining their breed. I think it's easy for an outsider to criticize a breed - but they're not privy to the trends in the breed, what's going on in the breed, yadda yadda yadda. People say that show bred Dobermans can't work and are "wussies"... but have these people ever seen a WAC? Probably not - I'd venture to say that the critics don't even know what the WAE is. My American-bred, show-line Dobermans have protected me several times... there's nothing wussy or insubstantial about them. Answer: Americans aren't the only ones ruining dogs - I dislike what certain breeders in the UK has done to Dobermans - waaay oversized, clunky - many of them look like smooth coated Rottweilers with long noses. The thing is, not *every* American breeder is ruining their breed. I think it's easy for an outsider to criticize a breed - but they're not privy to the trends in the breed, what's going on in the breed, yadda yadda yadda. People say that show bred Dobermans can't work and are "wussies"... but have these people ever seen a WAC? Probably not - I'd venture to say that the critics don't even know what the WAE is. My American-bred, show-line Dobermans have protected me several times... there's nothing wussy or insubstantial about them. I agree 100% A ton of people who criticize don't show or work their dogs. I've seen plenty of byb pushing an akc registration as a reason their dogs are worth something, but I've also seen people who purchase their dogs from bybs and find that they are not show type, so they claim their dogs to be 'working type' and condemn the flashiness of the show bred dogs. O.o Yeah, there are some pieces of work in every breed. I won't go into the papillon people in the AKC I don't agree with. Imho, if anyone is 'ruining' the papillon breed, it's the English breeders. They breed thick, longer coats on their dogs and focus way too much on markings imo. Some really nice dogs wouldn't be able to be shown their simply for lacking a blaze or having too much color on their body. AKC breeders are much more lax about that and so are judges nowadays. It took some time, but it's becoming much more a norm. Same thing with ticking on papillons. People who aren't involved in showing often times only notice things when the AKC is involved. It happens everywhere, I can assure you of that. Boemy, I never said that the judges would rather see a field bred dog. I said the seminars, etc when they are learning show them show bred dogs. How can you expect them to not place show types? It's what they see as the norm, and they're not all familiar with every issue in every breed. They deal with the standard and what they've been told is the best representative of that standard. Answer: YES! Seminars! Show me one outside critic that has attended a seminar for the breed they're tearing down - maybe the fancy is in the process of fixing the very thing the critic is complaining about... but how would the critic know without any firsthand knowledge of what is going on in the fancy. I don't stick my mose in the business of breeds that I'm not familiar with. I don't know the first thing about GSDs, but I'll happily comment on the state of the English Setter breed. I don't have anything to say about Papillons, but I can defend the Doberman to its critics. Answer: We're pretty lucky in the fact that you can import a dog from about anywhere and finish them in the AKC or another club. When Beau showed, there were at least dogs from 4 other countries in the ring. Many American bred dogs have multiple International champs in their line. Harry has champs from England, Finland, the US, and Japan in 5 generations. Plus, breeders from Sweden and Belgium, which are regarded as the top of papillon breeders are importing from the US. Kirby went to Crufts and won breed, he's all American. Sure there are some small differences, but they're small. If you have a good dog, it'll place. i'm getting off topic lol... sort of Answer: I don't stick my mose in the business of breeds that I'm not familiar with. I don't know the first thing about GSDs, but I'll happily comment on the state of the English Setter breed. I don't have anything to say about Papillons, but I can defend the Doberman to its critics. Exactly. I tend to shut up about breeds I'm not familiar with, because it's just not my business. I don't think it's the U.S. that's ruining the Border Collie, it's the "breed for looks" mindset. Its happening in all countries. In the UK, there is the kennel club and their Border Collies are just as short, fat and hairy as their American counterparts. I've seen Border Collies from South Africa, Japan, Germany, Mexico . . . They're all more or less the same. Cookie cutter dogs that couldn't tell a sheep from a cashmere sweater. I don't agree with deviating from the breed's original purpose, in terms of breeding. Conformation has nothing to do with what makes the Border Collie - the most important thing is that they can conform to a working standard. Breeding for appearance as well as working ability will not give you the best of both worlds. A jack of all trades is a master of none. The dog may be able to finish in the show ring and it may be able to "herd" a bit, but it won't win as much as the dogs bred exclusively for show, nor will it be as useful on a farm as a dog bred to work. Not to mention that a lot of the dogs winning in the ring today would be physically incapable of working. A dog that fit the breed standard would be physically suited to working, but as I've looked at it, most of the working Border Collies I know *do* fit the standard. To a tee. The standard isn't the issue, it's the trends in the show ring. Those working bred dogs would be laughed out of the ring because they don't have heavy coats, perfectly tipped "Lassie" ears, symmetrical markings and a flying trot gait. Yet according to the standard, they are correct . . . . Hmm. Some breeds are just destined to be split, and I think the Border Collie is one of them. You can't breed for "versatility" and have a dog that can compete with the dogs bred specifically *to* work. And since the Border Collie is still heavily relied upon as a working dog, I feel that the first and foremost priority in breeding should be to preserve the health, working ability and wide gene pool of this breed. Jmo though :D Some rather random but interesting reading: http://www.bordercollie.org/kpgene.html Answer: Totally off topic, but the pic of your bc in your av is adorable. Answer: What would be interesting is if AKC shows were more like 2-3 day events. Day #1: Dog get's assessed, conformation. Day #2: Dog is tested for working ability in the breeds original purpose. Each part of the show would account equally when ranking the dogs. That way, even if you had the most BEAUTIFUL BC, it wouldn't get ranked as high due to it's horrid work ethic. ~Tucker Hmmm. . . . what would the second day of Stafordshire Terrior competition look like? |
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