Rutland ManorQuestion:Has anyone here ever purchased a labradoodle puppy from Rutland Manor? I've been researching what pup I'd like to add as the final addition to my furry family once our new house closes in January. I was interested in a lhasa apso, but the fiancee really wants a bigger dog. Since allergies are a concern for me.. I seem to do much better w/poodle mixes. We looked into a standard poodle, but the fiancee doesn't care for them :(, and I've always loved the personality and look of the labradoodle. I'd really only feel comfortable getting one from Rutland Manor in Australia because I feel strongly that the pups there get the best care and socialization. I actually want the breeders and handlers to pick out a puppy based on personality for me rather than coat color, ect. I know a few people on the forum own labradoodles and I was just wondering if you could give me any info about these pups! Thanks a bunch! Answer: i know dr2little got her pup from australia but i dno about rutland manor, is there a website? Answer: It's rutlandmanor.com Answer: Yah Dr2little has one or two! :p :D Answer: There's Rutland Manor and Rubylove got hers from another Australian kennel so she could tell you a few places to look as well. Answer: Awesome! I can't wait to talk to them about it! Answer: I did some more research online and they seem pretty reputable... hmmm..... Answer: *sigh* Rutland Manor is a puppymill. Not only do they have a huge number of breeding dogs and bitches on the premises but they also breed their bitches back to back (every single season). That means litter, after litter, after litter, after litter (multiplied by all those bitches). :( No reputable breeder would do that. I say again...depsite their fancy site and intelligent wording, they are a puppymill. Before you decide on purchasing a labradoodle consider other large breeds with more reliable coats like the Lagotto Romagnolo (which looks similar to a labradoodle, but is an old breed) http://www.lagotto.net/lagrom2.htm , Bedlington Terriers http://bedlingtonamerica.com/ , Portuguese Water Dog http://www.pwdca.org/ , spanish water dog http://www.r4us.co.uk/swd/ and the Irish Water Spaniel http://www.iwsac.org/ . Cass. Answer: Try and get in touch with Dr.2Little and Rubylove- I'm pretty sure they got their dogs from reputable Labradoodle breeders (and reputable breeders of these guys are TRULY difficult to find). As far as Rutland Manor, I agree with Cassiepeia- FAR too many bitches being bred back to back means that there is NO way all of those puppies are getting adequate socialization. They ARE however MASTERS at creating a sleek website. In this case, what you see really isn't what you get. That's why so many of us here at Chaz stress the importance of being able to visit your puppy-breeder in person. Anyone can hide behind a website, and millers are getting better and better these days at being able to mimic reputable breeders. Besides, you've got to ask yourself- if YOU were a breeder, would you feel comfortable sending your own puppies to people you'd never met before? I certainly wouldn't! It's too bad your fiance isn't so in to the idea of Lhasas- they are truly a LOT of personality, and really, not as small as you would think. They're pretty hardy dogs in all actuality. Has he met any in person? Sometimes it's just a matter of actually meeting one to allow people to get over that "small dog stigma." And I know a fabulous Lhasa breeder, ;) Good luck on your puppy search! And keep us all posted! Answer: 15,000 to 20,000 for a Labradoodle?? Are they serious?? If you want a large breed that look like a Labradoodle.. then an Irish Wolfhound would be my guess... they are large.. very large.. but extra sweet.. and they're less expensive :) Answer: Honestly, I would look into the PWD. Smaller than the Labradoodle, guaranteed coat (or at least more so than most doodles) and sweet personality. They are also a water retrieving breed like both the Lab and poodle. it's also a lot easier to find good PWD breeders than Labradoodles. Plus cheaper. Answer: I'm in Australia, and I've never heard of Rutland, but then I don't own a labradoodle either heheh.. Look all I can suggest, is that if you are both so very undecided on breeds, there are always plenty of beautiful loving dogs that need adoption, from the many shelters in our countries. Just something else to consider :) Answer: 15-20k?! Holy crap. I was helping a friend get her Kelpie from Australia and with shipping, it was only $5k. I agree, Rutland Manor looks like a mill. Definitely not a place I'd buy a pup from. Answer: I agree, Rutland was around when I got Sophie and I ran the other direction. Unfortunately, my breeder has now had both her dogs (the only dogs that she bred) altered and is no longer breeding. I'll put an email into her to see what she thinks of other breeders there. The reason that I went with her is that she only had the mom and dad who were from more consistent lineage, bred very infrequently, and donated most of her pups for therapy. Contrary to popular belief on here, her coats were very consistent as well. Sophie is very typical of her pups, she's very tall (85 lbs.), doesn't shed a hair and is extremely calm. Her breeder offered me another pup at no charge but we weren't able to take one at that time....it was Sheba's last litter.:( Answer: Thanks for the info. I saw a special on tv about Rutland and I saw that they had a lot of dogs, but their facilities looked so clean and the dogs seemed so well taken care of that I just wasn't sure how bad it was. We are also looking into the PWD, but my fiancee still really likes the look of the labradoodle. He's read a lot saying that lhasa's are highly possessive, hard to train, ect... so I think that's why he's kind of veto'd that breed. I think the dogs that are 15,000 are breeding dogs... Answer: IMO, both Rutland Manor and Tegan Park are puppy mills. Yes, they might be working on a standard, but with all the litters they have it just seems to be like a huge business operation. Beautiful dogs though. Answer: There's tons of Labradoodles in rescue these days too. Answer: There's tons of Labradoodles in rescue these days too. Good Point chinchow...here's a link! http://www.poomixrescue.com/dog_types.html Answer: I'm really looking for the australian labradoodle though.. I haven't come across too many rescues.. Answer: Good Point chinchow...here's a link! http://www.poomixrescue.com/dog_types.html That list never ends! Answer: I'll definitely keep looking for a rescue, and other breeders as well. I won't be adding a pup to my family for quite a few months as it is, so I have plenty of time to look :) Answer: Did you check out the Lagotto Romagnolo? They look very similar to a lot of labradoodles. But I agree, look to rescue if you want that particular mix. Cass. Answer: The only problem w/me finding a rescue Australian Labradoodle is that I need the non shedding low allergen coat. I think it's going to be hard to find that quality in a rescue :( Answer: Please broaden your search. Stop looking for one particular mix and look at other dogs too. Lots of pure breeds have coats that are reliable and good for allergy sufferers (like the ones I mentioned in my other post with the links), but know this. There is no such thing as a 'non-shedding' dog (only low shedding) and no coat is 100% perfect. Even if a dog is great for one person with allergies, it may be bad for another. Cass. Answer: The only problem w/me finding a rescue Australian Labradoodle is that I need the non shedding low allergen coat. I think it's going to be hard to find that quality in a rescue :( importing a dog is no guarantee. we had clients at work pay a kajillion dollars to import a labradoodle and the kid was still allergic. if "non-shedding" and "low allergen" is an issue, i think you'd be much MUCH better off looking for a purebred poodle or portie or whatever. get the dog somewhere that you can MEET it first to find out if it sets off your allergies. Answer: importing a dog is no guarantee. So true Elegy. And just because the kennel is overseas doesn't mean it's reputable. Labradoodles, despite what you may think, are not accepted down here in Australia as a real breed nor do they get any respect. They are also top of the pile where backyard breeders and puppymills are concerned and both those people would love to convince someone overseas who can pay a lot of cash (because american money is worth more than aussie dollars) to buy one of their badly bred dogs. Don't be suckered into it. Unless you know the breed (and breeders) inside out and back to front, make sure you can go to the breeders house and grill them with questions in person whilst checking out their dogs and their home. Cass. Answer: I'm only going to purchase from Rutland if I am able to go to the breeding facilities myself and check it out. I know there's no guarantee on allergy friendliness (belieeeeeeeeeve me I know, lol) but there's a woman a few hours from me who has a labradoodle from Rutland that I was thinking of visiting to see how it went. We're also looking into the PWD, but I'm having a hard time finding breeders in my area (NY) and surrounding. Answer: We're also looking into the PWD, but I'm having a hard time finding breeders in my area (NY) and surrounding. http://www.pwdca.org/Puppy_List_Info/BreedersByState.htm Answer: Check this site out if you really want a Poodle mix rescue, they have hundreds of dogs!! http://www.poomixrescue.com/ PWG in rescue: http://search.petfinder.com/petnote/displaypet.cgi?petid=7345761 No kids though..Jeez!! There are only 2 PWG in rescue, 1 PWG mix. That's nuts... Answer: Thanks! I emailed the woman in Buffalo, NY Answer: Just for your information - there are some Labradoodles that have HORRIBLE coats and DO shed.. an insane amount like a lab... We get LOTS of this type of dog in for grooming.. at least three a week. Every single one that comes in is high energy, full of puppy playfulness - no matter what the age, they NEVER calm down lol Not sure if its just that the dog isn't stimulated at home, or if its the breed? Some of the dogs that come in have a nasty THICK THICK coat that is nearly impossble to look "nice" after a clip. The other kind looks fabulous. they have the poodle like coat. This breed is NOT a guarunteed "non-shedding" breed. Please keep that in mind. Answer: Heres another rescue in NY who has a couple "poo mixes" http://www.petfinder.com/shelters/NY589.html Auburn NY-"labradoodle" http://www.bci.net/users/FLSPCA/index2.html Medina NY-"goldendoodle" http://search.petfinder.com/petnote/displaypet.cgi?petid=7030090 Baby "labradoodles" http://search.petfinder.com/petnote/displaypet.cgi?petid=7284998 http://search.petfinder.com/petnote/displaypet.cgi?petid=7285172 http://search.petfinder.com/petnote/displaypet.cgi?petid=7343820 Another one with same rescue: http://search.petfinder.com/petnote/displaypet.cgi?petid=7374109 It's no problem, I actually have fun looking for people dogs. Remember some rescues ship as well so if the dog you want is far away..Let us know how it goes. Answer: Riot- The ones from Rutland Manor have a guaranteed no shed coat if that is put in your "wish list". They have some sort of testing that can be done. I believe it's the wool coat that is the best for people with allergies. Answer: I dont think there is such a testing for puppies.. puppies dont keep their puppy coat - they she dit out and grow the "adult coat"... Puppymillers like to make up crap like that though :) Answer: i agree with summerRiot. i would NEVER buy a mixed breed. rescue if possible. Answer: Against my better judgement (as Rutland and Tegan Park infuriate me) I am once again surfing their website to point out some reasons why these places are not responsible breeders... Rutland states: Each two years, in September, Rutland Manor tours the United States, which is the country importing the largest number of our Australian Labradoodles, for the purpose of monitoring the development of our dogs, gathering further information and giving free instruction on care, training and breeding. And then also states: The TRAGIC result of this is that because the dogs they are mass producing all parade under the name 'Labradoodle' or even 'Australian Labradoodle' they are not the same dog at all. Thousands of these are finding their way into high kill shelters when their owners discover that the puppy sold to them as a 'Labradoodle' ( even many of those registered in the various Associations ) DOES shed its coat, DOES affect their allergies and DOES NOT have the temperament they were led to expect in the breed. With the mass production of their "Australian Labradoodles," and admittingly high export to the United States, I find it very difficult to believe that: a) They keep track of each dog they export well enough to know that the dog is still in the home they placed it in. b) The "thousands" of doodles they admit end up in shelters are in no way related to the many dogs they have exported to the US. c) The dogs they have exported to the US have been used in accordance with their "breeding guidelines." Rutland states: By breeding successive cycles and then retiring the breeding females several years younger than if they skipped a cycle each year, these still-young females have the chance to find a loving forever home where they can spend the rest of their lives as the adored single family companion they deserve to be. This statement more or less admits to the fact that their breeding dogs are not viewed or treated as family house dogs, but rather breeding machines. Once their females have "done their time," it's the out with the old and in with the new mindset, which disgusts me. It also makes me wonder how they assure that their breeding stock is not coming down with genetic health problems mid to late life, since they pawn them off to pet homes once they're done breeding the bajeezus out of them, and so can't continue CERF testing yearling, or OFA at a later date, or witness the dog's health through mid and late life. Often, genetic health problems don't show up right away. But if they get the dog bred and out of there fast enough, they'll never be faced with having to witness the long term affects of what they're doing. Rutland states: Many of the old pedigrees of infused stock have either code names or show some of the ancestry as 'unavailable'. The reason for this is that owners/breeders of pure breeds of quality, can have their show ring careers ended and be expelled from their kennel clubs if they allow one of their pure bred dogs to mate with another breed. Fortunately, when I infused the Soft Coated Wheaten (Irish lines only) Rutland Manor had long been recognised as developing a new breed, rather than simply 'cross breeding'. This enabled the true pedigrees of the imported Irish Line SCW to be provided and so established accurate records of the infusion. I find it rather humorous that they think breaking national breed club Codes of Ethics is nothing, and strive to protect the identity of those who sold them dogs for mixed breeding purposes. Or perhaps the information is not being given because they acquired mediocre dogs from backyard breeders and puppymills (who are often times not members of national breed clubs) and wish to keep that a secret? I also can find no mention of the woman who allowed them to breed to her Wheatens. If she was so supportive and her dogs so valued, why not credit her with name and kennel information? Again, the "secrecy" behind some of their practices really worries me. Tegan Park states: TEGAN PARK took up where Wally left off to become the founder and developer of the Australian Labradoodle. The Idea fascinated me, "wonder if it IS possible to breed a non shedding non smelly dog"??? It was an irresistible challenge Non shedding, "non smelly" dog breeds ALREADY EXIST. Why attempt to create another and charge 15K - 20K when there are already suitable dogs in existance? The answer is MONEY. Tegan Park states: With the Promotions that the Guide Dog program generated ' Labradoodles sprang up everywhere and so did the demand and the introduction of the "Adoption program" when doing my research I found that in the USA puppy purchasing was referred to as Adopting I loved the terminology it was so much nicer than the word Sell!. With the Adoption came the idea of an application to purchase a Tegan Park Labradoodle and part of the condition of Adoption was that families had to be willing to send us feed back every 3 months on there dog and to take part in the annual "Fun Day" While they admit to having exported large volumes of these dogs to the US, I don't see how they can: a) Have a legally binding contract to assure that they will be able to get the above listed feedback and visitation. b) Possibly have screened each home properly to make sure each and every puppy buyer was a good choice. The term "adoption program" also flat out disgusts me. I see puppymills and backyard breeders try to use that line when selling their dogs/puppies. It is only more sugar coating to try and hide the fact that they mass produce unethically. Rutland states: Genuine Breeder Opportunity - The following young proven breeding females are available as we are raising their sons and daughters for our own breeding programs. Prices are very low in order to help Angela (Tegan Park) re-establish herself in her home. This is a genuine opportunity to secure top quality breeding stock at never to be repeated prices. Sounds like a "liquidation sale" at a car dealership, doesn't it? And while they boast that they breed their females back to back to back to back to back, they are now offering these poor girls intact to continue their life as breeding machines??? WHY? The answer is MONEY. Intact dogs sell for MORE. So just throw quality of life out the window in the name of MONEY, yes that sounds delightful. Answer: I had to make this two posts because Chazhound told me I typed too much for one post, whoops!! That's what happens when I get mad I guess! :lol-sign: CONTINUED from previous post: They claim their dogs all live in "guardian" homes (BTW: "guardian" is an animal rights, PETA term) - yet they also boast about their "facility." These two things confuse and concern me. It also leads me to believe that they have the "guardian" homes paying for all of the daily doggy life needs, while they profit from the breedings? Also, if these dogs actually are living in home environments then WHY are they being sold after they are done breeding? I thought they were already in a home? It gets me thinking that they have a network of folks that simply act as foster homes and constantly circulate breeding animals for the facility so they can avoid looking like one giant kennel operation. So I highly doubt, even in "guardian homes," that these dogs are treated as pets and family members - but rather as breeding machines who are waiting their turn in line to fulfill their usefulness and then get placed. If you want an allergy friendly dog, THEY ALREADY EXIST! You can ADOPT purebreds from animal shelters and purebred rescues. You can also purchase pet quality puppies from responsible, ethical show/work breeders. Tegan Park and Rutland Manor are nothing more than cleverly disguised mass breeding operations out to make a buck. If you are in New York and want to see some dogs first hand and meet some responsible breeders, go to a dog show! There is a huge show at the New York State Fairgrounds in Syracuse that is going on as I type. The last day is Sunday. This is an excellent way to meet breeders and find the type of dog you're looking for!! Answer: Summit.. I agree with some of the things you've pointed out. I also know that there are already dogs with an allergy friendly coat. I haven't done all my research on Rutland or Tegan and I also haven't put down a deposit or held a puppy. I'm just in the process of searching out which dog would be best for me, to complete my family. If this happens to be a labradoodle mix - then that is the one I'll chose. I'm going to make sure that I check out all rescue possibilities and other breed options. My fiancee and I have always really like labradoodles and the PWD so those are the main two we are considering. If I buy from Rutland -- I will be going to Australia to look around the breeding facilities myself. My fiancee frequently goes there for work, and I would be able to go with him. I have trouble going to dog shows because of the abundance of different breeds of dogs in the same place. It is difficult because my allergies and asthma to most dogs are severe and when I'm in a setting like that, I usually have a very severe asthma attack that sometimes requires hospitalization. The reason I felt most comfortable with Rutland was because they've done the process of placing dogs in suitable homes for so many years with little problems. I've also spoken with other labradoodle owners from Rutland that have had their dogs for years and the coat stayed true and non shedding. Answer: summit GREAT post! awesome advice. Answer: There really are so many Labradoodles in shelters and rescues, I don't see any reason to pay a breeder for one. Especially considering you're just paying for a mixed breed. You can get that same non-shedding doddle from a shelter for around $100. Same dog, without the guilt of handing over money to a puppy mill. And I'm willing to bet said dog may have even started out as a puppy from one of these 'breeders'. I'm glad you're looking into rescue, but please don't be fooled into thinking that Rutland hasn't had any problems. With the volume of dogs they breed how would they really know if their dogs ended up in shelters? They can't keep track of that many. They're churning them out, taking the money and laughing all the way to the bank over the Americans that will shell out thousands for a mutt. Answer: I guess, I just feel like they take such good care of the dogs. And the dogs look so happy. Answer: you notice you are the only one on here that thinks that? i am not trying to be rude, but NO ONE who cares about dogs would have that many and breed that many. its all about the money a puppy mill will also tell you ANYTHING so you will think they are great, and buy a puppy. i would highly highly recommend you read some more about puppy mills and the horid lives the dog lives, etc. good luck finding a dog:D i really dont mean to sound rude, i just really want you to see that its a bad place, and you shouldnt get a dog there. Answer: Of course the dogs look happy. A picture of a happy dog sells puppies, a picture of a sad dog doesn't. There are so many "doodles" in shelters, please get one of them instead. Or consider other breeds. Answer: IMO you will have lots of trouble finding a reputable breeder with laberdoodles. someone correct me, but MOST reputable breeders would never even consider breeding a mix! i am not sure if there is a such thing as a reputable doodle breeder. Answer: I guess, I just feel like they take such good care of the dogs. And the dogs look so happy. If the only requirement for taking good care of the dogs is keeping a clean facility, then sure. But, breeding a female every heat cycle is not taking good care of them. (how would you feel if you had a child every ten months, for years?) Breeding so many dogs that they are unable to keep track of them or properly screen the homes is not taking good care of them. Neither is passing along the females to other 'breeders' for more breeding after they've done their time at Rutland. And of course they look happy. They wouldn't post any pictures of unhappy dogs...that wouldn't make them any money. Bottom line, if you give these people money, you're supporting a puppy mill plain and simple. The fancy website and sweet talk may disguise it, but they are still a puppy mill. Answer: but MOST reputable breeders would never even consider breeding a mix! I am not sure if there is a such thing as a reputable doodle breeder. I honestly don't think there is either. People can claim to be breeding only a small amount of litters, and only tested parents, but it still comes down to breeding mixes. personally I feel we have enough breeds to choose from as it is. Answer: and the fact that doodles are hot on the market and bring in lots of money. and breeding for money you HAVE to cut corners because breeding right you dont profit. Answer: In the end.. you'll do what you want to do.. I hope you'll be wise and not choose a pup from a puppy mill but perhaps from a shelter. I wish you the best of luck in choosing your next pup :) Answer: Well I didn't want to start a big debate here, I was just looking for opinions and I've gotten them, so I'll take them into consideration. I said, again that i'd be going to Australia and seeing the facilities and the dogs, seeing how many times they were bred, ect. If I didn't feel comfortable I wouldn't do it. Answer: I think there was one "decent" Labradoodle kennel in Australia named Cloud Catcher? Or something along those lines...there was a thread about them on here not too long ago, do a search and you should find it. Answer: Sounds like you've already got your mind made up. I know I wouldn't take a trip to Australia unless I was pretty sure I wanted a pup.... Anyway, good luck in your dog search. Answer: Thanks Zoom! I'll look for it! Answer: Silverpawz- My fiancee goes to australia ALL the time. It's easy for me to tag along, therefore it wouldn't be a special trip and no my mind isn't made up. I feel like you're jumping to conclusions.. Answer: As I said before, good luck in your dog search. Answer: Ugh, I'm sorry I even brought it up Answer: Do they CERF or OFA (or do the Aussie equivalents)? I noticed that they say this: HD and elbow disorders can be induced by improper excercise, and a too-high protein diet in the rapid growth phase of the puppy. But they don't mention that they can also be induced by genetics. Which makes me wonder. Answer: Krisy, it's a touchy subject here, since so many of us work in rescue and shelters, and they're overflowing with Labradoodles, imported or domestic. There is a shelter out in Oregon that just had 42? Labradoodle puppies come in because someone got a little overzealous with their breeding program and couldn't take care of the resulting litters. Unfortunely, "Australian Labradoodle" is starting to become as much of a selling tag as "Teacup Chihuahua" or "Pocket Puggle". Answer: Please lay off of Kris, she has expressed quite a bit of interest in adoption and "being on her back" doesnt help. We can educate in a kind manner.. I am sure she will make the right decision and we all need to support her. We all know about "Labradoodle" breeders, but instead of being mean to her why dont you give her links to "labradoodles" who need rescuing here in the states? Or why dont you give her links to reputable PWD breeders?? I also know if she goes to Austraillia to look at these breeder's set up I am sure she will be wise enough not to buy one of the puppies since my educated guess is they arent kept in the most ideal set up (and the mama's are probably bred SO much). Kris-my advice is if you do go to Australlia go there with the promise to yourself that if the conditions are bad you wont feel sorry for a puppy and take one home. If they are kept in bad conditions (which I would bet money they are) then dont keep this person in buisness by buying one of her pups. Why dont you check out one of those 42 in the shelter in Oregon? I know it is quite a trip but all the rescues around here have no problem shipping dogs across country as long as your references check out.. I too dont think there is such a thing as a reputable "labradoodle" breeder.. Answer: Zoom, I understand. To be honest, I can't tell you how many times that I've wanted to adopt an animal from the shelter. In most cases, the animals available at my local shelters are just not suitable for my health issues. I'm looking to make an educated choice is all. I plan on asking a very detailed list of questions. I'm not jumping on any trend bandwagon. I appreciate everyone's opinion. I just feel attacked I guess. Just because I don't want a pure breed or I can't find a dog that works for me at a shelter. I also have two small dogs and the shelters I've contacted about some of their pups can't be adopted to a household like mine because of their personalities or issues. I'm doing the best I can to find a win win situation. I don't like it when people judge me just based on asking a question. And, whether I am being judged or not, that is how I feel. Answer: Thanks Adopt. I have checked out every link you've sent me. Maybe I'm just not adoption savvy.. but most people I contact to adopt will not let the animal leave a certain county or be picked up by car or plane. I live in a rural area to say the least and most any place I'll adopt from will be a far ways from me. Do you have any tips for negotiating with the rescues? Thanks again <3 Answer: I don't think anyone is attacking you nor judging you. We all feel like the site you posted is a puppy mill and your not understanding that.. so its a little frustrating. Answer: I just feel like I should ask some questions to the breeders about how many times their dogs are bred, ect ect before I judge if it is a puppy mill or not. It's not that I don't understand.. I just feel before I make a decision I should look into it more Answer: I just feel like I should ask some questions to the breeders about how many times their dogs are bred, ect ect before I judge if it is a puppy mill or not. Even if they were a puppy mill their not going to tell you they are. Their going to do everything in their power to get you to buy a puppy ;) Answer: Do you have any tips for negotiating with the rescues? Contact purebred rescues in addition to shelters. Purebred rescues are made up of individual enthusiasts of a specific breed (for example: I operate a Siberian rescue). Most times, these are the folks that will help you in pulling a shelter dog from across the country, and working out transport to get the dog to you. I have three dogs being transported to me tomorrow from Ohio. I'm in New York. Wonderful people VOLUNTEER to transport these dogs, each person doing an hour or two of travel and then handing off to the next volunteer. PWD Club of America Rescue and Relocation: http://www.pwdca.org/rescue.html Answer: Kris-my advice is if you do go to Australlia go there with the promise to yourself that if the conditions are bad you wont feel sorry for a puppy and take one home. If they are kept in bad conditions That's just it. I'm willing to bet these dog are kept in decent conditions, probably even very clean. That's what worries me quite honestly, because it's easy to be lulled into a false sense of security. We all know that a mill with horrible living conditions, the kind of place with crap in ever corner is no place to buy a puppy from, but a mill that is clean and with staff that talks a good game...it's easy for many people to be swayed and I would hate to see that happen here. Kirsykris, I'm not trying to pick on you. Honest. It just makes me sad to think that this well set up puppy mill may be 'hooking' you. It's what places like this do best, they're good at it, and I feel frustrated that you don't seem to see it. I'm not trying to jump on you and I'm sorry if you feel that I did. Okay a few suggestions, I work with a rescue groups. Each group has different policies, so while one may not allow out of state adoptions, another might be perfectly fine with it. If you find a dog you like and the group doesn't allow out of state adoptions don't give up, it helps to mention that you have good vet refferences, and are open to a home inspection. (even if they're too far away, saying you don't mind is a good sign) Offer to pick up the dog yourself so you can meet them in person and they can get a feel for you. I would also ask them "what can I do to make this work?" Put the ball in their court and show them that you are serious about this and willing to do whatever it takes to get the dog. If they really want to find a good home, they'll at least give you a second look. It's also can't hurt to surf petfinder and not limit your search to just your state. As I said, some rescues have no prolem with out of state adoptions. In fact if you find a Doodle in a rual shelter, chances are they won't be able to give him to you fast enough as many of those places are very high kill. These people couldn't careless if you are from out of state, they just want to save the dogs from getting gassed. If you have the means to travel to view a dog and possibly adopt on the spot then you shouldn't have a problem finding a doodle mix eventually in one of these places. Memphis and Ohio have very high kill shelters and personally that's where I'd start looking. May take a while for your doodle to show up, or it may happen right away, but it'll happen. Hope this helps. :) Answer: Silver - Thank you that DOES help me a lot. I've just been getting the runaround with shelters... filling out applications, making phone calls and getting nowhere. Also, because I live in an apartment right this minute... ( i'm closing on my home in January) no one is willing to look at me until I'm moved in. Also, the home I'm moving into doesn't have a fence, and I will be putting one up ASAP, but that's another problem for a lot of rescues. So, I feel like a lot of times I'm missing out because in their eyes my home's not ready. I have stellar vet references, and personal references and I'm mostly stay at home. I have so many good qualities that I think would make for a happy life for a dog. It just is disheartening to keep getting unanswered phonecalls because on my application I wrote "no fence" "will be installing one asap". Answer: Work with people, sit down and talk to them. Explain to them that you are not looking to add a dog to your family until AFTER you have completed the requirements for adoption when you move. I know plenty of rescues and even shelters that would gladly put you on a waiting list and keep their eyes open for the type of dog you were interest in. Answer: I have a list of high kill shelters in the ohio area if that's not too far for you and would be happy to give it to you via PM. I doubt you'd have any problem adoptiing from them, fence or no fence. Even in an apartment. If you're getting the run-around, it's likely that you're not contacting really high kill shelters. Rescue groups can be picky, since the dogs there are not in any danger of being killed. The dogs in high kill shelters only have days to live before being gassed and in most places the staff just want to get them out alive. Answer: No Ohio is not too far. I'd be happy to look at the list! Answer: Sure thing, give me a few minutes and I'll PM it to you. :) Answer: Thanks! Answer: IMO you will have lots of trouble finding a reputable breeder with laberdoodles. someone correct me, but MOST reputable breeders would never even consider breeding a mix! i am not sure if there is a such thing as a reputable doodle breeder. This has been answered so many times on this board.....:( Sophie actually did come from a VERY reputable breeder in Australia. Some of the posts on this thread are absolutely correct while others are more of the same bandwagon jumping responses based on misinformation. Answer: As I said before, good luck in your dog search. This kind of attitude is how we loose members....:mad: Gosh it's getting old silver!:confused: Answer: This kind of attitude is how we loose members.... Gosh it's getting old silver! I think it's obvious that me and the OP have come to an understanding. I'm not going to argue with you Dr2. Answer: I think it's obvious that me and the OP have come to an understanding. I'm not going to argue with you Dr2. Yes, I noticed that you changed your tune and that I had posted before I had gotten to the end. I've just seen this from you and so many other who can't seem (at times) to be helpful without badgering. Sorry, I should have read to the end before adding my 2 cents.. Answer: dr2little.. I wish your breeder was still breeding!! <3 Answer: I don't think I was badgering her at all. Different views I guess. Anyway, apology accepted. :) Answer: My opinion on labradoodles... if you really want one. Find a breeder that: - *only* breeds in an attempt to get close to a standard - should be able to tell you why they bred that male with that female, what both have that would improve the 'breed' to try to make it breed true... only breeds in an attempt to get that 'perfect' puppy for their breeding program.... not to sell (although obviously they would sell the pups that are too far from the 'standard') - not too many litters... doesn't breed bitches every season... if the dogs don't make puppies close to the 'standard', doesn't breed them again - does health testing on both parents - doesn't charge an arm and a leg - the pups should be cheap if they are sold, as a good breeder would keep the 'perfect' pups for breeding to try and breed true... the rest are just mutts! Anyway... just my opinion. I'm not for labradoodle breeding, but in these conditions, when it's obvious it's an effort to try to breed true and not just to make fast cash, I guess I would be ok with it... Answer: Kris, We bought our puppy from a backyard breeder. He's a Schnauzer-Poodle mix (mutt, terrier mix, Schnauzer mix). I love him more than anything, he doesn't shed, he's brilliant, and he's all he was "advertised" to be. However, I regret it so much. They shipped him to us in a crate--in which he had definitely gone to the bathroom during the flight without asking us for anything more than money. They didn't care if we would be a good home for the dog--they just wanted their ridiculous price. People that purposefully breed mixes are in it for the money and not the dogs. I know there is a sort of prestige for some people in having a Labradoodle, GoldenDoodle, Schnoodle, or other mix, but it isn't fair at all to the thousands of poodle mixes dying in shelters because they aren't sold by the right breeder. Your labradoodle may be guaranteed not to shed, but I can also guarantee you that a standard poodle won't shed. Why should the poodle have to die? If a standard poodle doesn't work for you, have you considered a Soft Coated Wheaton Terrier? http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/softcoatedwheatenterrier.htm They are beautiful dogs with great personalities, non-shedding (super soft), and very loyal. Here's some things that we go through daily because we have a BYB designer dog: -We're training our dog to compete in agility and he is phenomenal. He will also make a great flyball height dog when he's older (anyone interested?). Unfortunately, people still run up to us and scream about our "cutie-pie little baby Schnoodle girl". 20 lbs isn't that little, he's not a baby, he should never be called a cutie-pie, and he is a boy. -People ask us for the name of our breeder so they can get a dog that looks just like him. They don't want a dog that is a great companion, but something based solely on looks. -At the dog park, people say, "awww, look at the little dog!! That's so cute, he even chases a ball." They shut up when he plays with the biggest dogs without flinching, fetches like a pro, and see that he is very well trained. -We work really hard to train our dog. A lot of people that meet him say, "he's so well trained, it must be because he's half poodle." No, it's because we work with him constantly. But due to the stigma of a designer dog, we lose a lot of credibility. Answer: kris, don't you have two pretty young pups right now as it is? why not give them your attention. let them grow up being the apple of your eye. when they're a bit older, start looking seriously into getting another dog. breeder research is an excellent thing to be doing. you don't need to be filling out applications right now. wait until you're in your new house and settled. just scope out breeders, check them out online, get in contact with them in a general way and get to know them, let them get to know you. slow down. whether you're looking at importing a labradoodle or getting in contact with a portie breeder nearby, just slow down. Answer: Elegy... I'm not looking to adopt tomorrow :) I just want all of my puppies to grow up together, so i'd like them to be close in age. I have the time, energy and money to dedicate to it so I figure why not? The only reason I filled out applications for rescues was because the rescue organizations that I spoke with wouldn't even speak with me about their organization or email me back until I filled one out. I wasn't inquiring on a particular dog :) I will be waiting to make my decision though until I get settled in my new home. With Rutland, if I decide to go w/them or another Australian breeder most likely I'll be put on a long long wait list, which is why I'm just trying to go through my options :) Answer: Herschel- I understand where you're coming from. I also get the what kind of dog is that comments. I always say a yorkie poodle mix or a jack russell yorkie mix. Then people go "oh a yorkie poo! or a yojack!". It doesn't really bother me, but I can see how it could to some people. I've met a few labradoodles and I love the personality. It's unlike a lot of other dogs I've met. I'm sure many people will disagree with me here, but it's just a unique thing I've noticed. Again though, I haven't made any final decisions regardless :) Answer: How can you tell their personality is different from a labrador or a poodle? I would bet that in most cases, it's just about the same as one or the other... Answer: Honestly, most of the ones I deal with are like taller, curly Labs. They're generally crazy. :) Answer: *sigh* Rutland Manor is a puppymill. Not only do they have a huge number of breeding dogs and bitches on the premises but they also breed their bitches back to back (every single season). That means litter, after litter, after litter, after litter (multiplied by all those bitches). :( No reputable breeder would do that. I say again...depsite their fancy site and intelligent wording, they are a puppymill. Just thought I would repeat this. Cassiepeia lives in Australia and says this is a puppy mill. Why don't you believe her? Why waste money on plane fare to go there just to try and get scammed into buying a cute puppy? Its makes me think of the pet stores who say they do not sell puppy mill puppies, but even some people who know they do still get suckered into buying them because of how cute they are. I just don't understand why someone who knows what a puppy mill is, and that this is a puppy mill, is still considering purchasing from this facility? Answer: ^^^^ whats she said!!!!^^^^ Answer: Silver, do you mind PMing me the list of High Kill shelters as well? ~Tucker Answer: Okay, thanks for the opinions everyone. I'm going to stop talking about it now because obviously people don't agree with buying a mixed breed dog. I'll just ask my own questions and figure out how I feel about it on my own. I appreciate all the input. Answer: no, we are warning you that they are a mill! if you want a dog from a puppy mill, then fine do so. its your wasted money on a dog that you can rescue, its your money going to support that mill. its your choice. Answer: Tucker&Me, no problem, it's on the way. :) Answer: Rabbits-- if I feel comfortable purchasing a dog from there which I'm NOT saying that I am, then I'm going to do so. I have to use my judgment ultimately. I'm exploring other options and don't plan on purchasing a labradoodle from anywhere for the next few months. I know how everyone here feels about mixed breed breeders and Rutland Manor. I'm taking it into consideration, I'm going to evaluate how I feel after I'm completely done with all my research. I have a feeling that no matter where I get my labradoodle from, someone will have a problem with it unless it's a rescue. I'm going to thoroughly look for a smaller breeder that does health testing ect, and ask whoever I get my pup from many many questions. Answer: you are probably right. i hope you can find one at a resuce. they are out there Answer: The second you step on to the Rutland Manor property they'll try to convince you to buy a pup. They'll be worse than a used car salesman. They'll tell you everything you want to hear and more (even if most of it is a bold face lie). I bet you won't leave without either buying a pup or leaving a deposit to have one shipped to you. They're well known as a puppymill down here. Clean though they are and I don't understand how anyone could not see that even from their website. Honestly I think you just don't care where the pup comes from as long as you get one. More money to puppymills, more bitches tortured with continuous breeding (which they admit to on their site...so it's straight from their own mouth), more dogs dying in shelters. It all makes me want to cry. I am really glad you're looking at shelters and rescues though. I applaud you for that and for checking out more reputable breeders of pure breeds. I don't care if you get a mix breed or a purebreed, my only concern is the breeder you choose. Cass. Answer: Okay, thanks for the opinions everyone. I'm going to stop talking about it now because obviously people don't agree with buying a mixed breed dog. I'll just ask my own questions and figure out how I feel about it on my own. I appreciate all the input. I am sorry that you thought I was referring to buying a mix breed dog. Mix breed dogs are wonderful! I never indicated one bad thing about mixed breed dogs or buying from a good breeder. I never noticed anyone else did either? I asked a straight forward question. You know this is a puppy mill, why are you still considering adopting a dog from them? I would like to know what your frame of mind is with this. We can't have it both ways. Either a) you Believe Cassiepeia is lying. (And what reason would she have to do that?) b) you believe Cassiepeia about it being a puppy mill, but may still choose to buy a dog from them and support a puppy mill. If you choose not to answer my question here, I understand, because people feel very strongly about this issue. You can feel free to pm me and I will keep your response confidential other than to say you have explained. If you don't explain then I think no response says a lot. Answer: Honestly I think you just don't care where the pup comes from as long as you get one. From the evasive answers listed in this thread this is exackly what it sounds like. If this is not the case then please explain. Answer: I'm sorry but you guys are WAY off. I just dealt with a puppy mill last weekend reporting them to the SPCA and such. I have no intention of purchasing a dog from a puppy mill. Where in this thread did I say I was definitely buying a puppy from there? All I said was that I want to know for myself the answers to some of the questions I have for Rutland. Not in necessarily the search of buying a puppy, but in the search of satisfying my own curiosity. I want to be able to make my OWN judgment. I am not buying a puppy regardless of where it comes from. It really bothers me that I feel bullied by some people in this thread. I asked a simple question, got some responses and said I'm choosing to make my own decision. You can think what you want about me and my integrity, but the bottom line is if you want to judge me and assume things that's not true, you'll do it regardless. I've said COUNTLESS times I'm considering rescues and looking into other breeders as well. Apparently unless I'm bashing Rutland whom I've never even corresponded with, I'm not doing the right thing. Answer: From the evasive answers listed in this thread this is exackly what it sounds like. If this is not the case then please explain. My answers are most certainly not evasive. I'm contemplating options and am months away from purchasing any puppy. I've said I'm to make my own decision. What? Unless I say that I'm definitely not purchasing from Rutland apparently I don't have an answer that's clarifying enough. Answer: I'm sorry but you guys are WAY off. I just dealt with a puppy mill last weekend reporting them to the SPCA and such. I have no intention of purchasing a dog from a puppy mill. Where in this thread did I say I was definitely buying a puppy from there? All I said was that I want to know for myself the answers to some of the questions I have for Rutland. Not in necessarily the search of buying a puppy, but in the search of satisfying my own curiosity. I want to be able to make my OWN judgment. I am not buying a puppy regardless of where it comes from. It really bothers me that I feel bullied by some people in this thread. I asked a simple question, got some responses and said I'm choosing to make my own decision. Okay. I understand not believing everything you read on the internet, but you indicated you are going to travel over seas to determine if its a puppy mill does not sound right... How would you know? There facility is probably nice and clean, etc They are never going to say they are a puppy mill. What you are missing is that it clearly indicates on there web site that they over breed there dogs. Do you not agree that a company who mass produces dogs for the purpose of profit and not in the best interest of the dogs is a puppy mill? That is what they indicate they are doing on there web site, just with some sugar coating on top. I am trying to determine if you clearly do not understand what a puppy mill is, or you refuse to acknowledge that they are a puppy mill, which is clear from the information about breeding on there web site? I am seriously asking, because you sound sincere and want to learn, which is great, but seem to be glossing over the fact that they clearly indicate on there site they are over breeding there dogs. You don't have to believe a random person on the internet, but you should believe the companies own information listed right on there site, which proves the fact they are a puppy mill. There is no ifs, ands or buts about it. Answer: My answers are most certainly not evasive. I'm contemplating options and am months away from purchasing any puppy. I've said I'm to make my own decision. What? Unless I say that I'm definitely not purchasing from Rutland apparently I don't have an answer that's clarifying enough. You are not going to get a lot of pats on the back for supporting a puppy mill on this forum. Please read some previous threads with the puppy mill content and do some more research and you may better understand our feelings. Answer: OK, I think that if some of you re-read your posts you'll see just how bad you sound. I think she GETS IT ALREADY. I can see clearly why we loose so many members here. Unbelievable! Answer: I said there was a possibility that I would go to Australia to look at the breeding facility. I NEVER SAID I was getting a puppy from there. I just didn't. And like I stated before traveling to Australia is NO big DEAL for me because my fiancee goes all the time for work. I would also likely be going to other breeders as WELL to speak with them, ect. I clearly can't explain myself so I'm 100% done. Think what you want about me, think I'm uneducated and support puppy mills, think thoughts that are totally untrue. Answer: I think she GETS IT ALREADY. If she 'got it' she would have clearly stated that she either wasn't going to even consider supporting the Rutland puppymill or that she had no problems with supporting a puppymill and was proud to do so. Although I would prefer her to never in a million years support a puppymill or even consider it, I would understand her persistance with 'checking them out' if she just didn't care whether it was a mill or not and was happy to support them. If someone knows a place is a puppymill and knows puppymills are bad (and why) I am disgusted with the thought that they would even waste their time 'checking it out'. Especially flying more than 20hrs to another country to do so. I'm sorry to say it, and if your breeder dr2little was reputable I claim ignorance of that particular breeder, but there aren't any reputable labradoodle breeders that I know of. Unless you count the guidedog association which I'm not sure is breeding them to any great extent anyway. KrisyKris...I'm sorry you feel bullied, but I'm only concerned for the dogs involved in this. If you want more Australian opinions on Australian breeders of any dogs present in Australia I recommend you do a search for 'dogzonline' which is an Australian dog community and forum. It is thick with highly educated and experienced dog people who have a great knowledge of dogs, breeds and breeders from all over Australia. I know for a fact there is a labradoodle & 'Spoodle' owner on the board who is an active member. Join that site, talk to those people and actually listen to what they have to say because they are the best people to talk to if you're truely interested and considering a dog from Australia. Cass. Answer: If she 'got it' she would have clearly stated that she either wasn't going to even consider supporting the Rutland puppymill or that she had no problems with supporting a puppymill and was proud to do so. Although I would prefer her to never in a million years support a puppymill or even consider it, I would understand her persistance with 'checking them out' if she just didn't care whether it was a mill or not and was happy to support them. If someone knows a place is a puppymill and knows puppymills are bad (and why) I am disgusted with the thought that they would even waste their time 'checking it out'. Especially flying more than 20hrs to another country to do so. I'm sorry to say it, and if your breeder dr2little was reputable I claim ignorance of that particular breeder, but there aren't any reputable labradoodle breeders that I know of. Unless you count the guidedog association which I'm not sure is breeding them to any great extent anyway. KrisyKris...I'm sorry you feel bullied, but I'm only concerned for the dogs involved in this. If you want more Australian opinions on Australian breeders of any dogs present in Australia I recommend you do a search for 'dogzonline' which is an Australian dog community and forum. It is thick with highly educated and experienced dog people who have a great knowledge of dogs, breeds and breeders from all over Australia. I know for a fact there is a labradoodle & 'Spoodle' owner on the board who is an active member. Join that site, talk to those people and actually listen to what they have to say because they are the best people to talk to if you're truely interested and considering a dog from Australia. Cass. We have taken this to PM so people don't feel the need to keep hammering. If you knew anything at all about me you'd know that I am the last person to support puppy mills....check the volunteer list on some of those poodle mix rescues.:rolleyes: I am however fed up with how people continue to be bullied. I may not live in Australia Cass but have many friends who do, including Sophie's breeder..who incidentally was one of the main contributors to the threapy pool. It's just a shame that the tones of replys have to become so accusitory and self righteous to the point where someone wants to leave Chaz. Assuming someone is incapable of making "the right" decision once the go all the way to Australia for goodness sakes......how does that help??? I think this thread has run its course. Answer: Assuming someone is incapable of making "the right" decision once the go all the way to Australia for goodness sakes. I'm not assuming that I'm assuming that the breeders will use every trick in the book to gain a sale. It worries me that someone traveling all this way (and that is a big deal) will have in the back of their mind the thought that they might come home with a pup and that little thought will end up being what the charismatic breeders will use against them. I never said you supported puppymills, just that I am willing to claim no knowledge of the breeder you bought from. Every labradoodle breeder I've come across is disreputable if you found one that isn't, that's fantastic. I'm glad there is at least someone who cares about the dogs. I can plainly see by your posts that you have no wish to support mills. I apologise if you got that impression. Taking this to PM is a good idea. It's simply the frustration of seeing this known puppymill still being considered after it's mill status has been confirmed time and time again that brings out so much negativity and overshadows the OP's effort in regards to looking at shelter dogs. Cass. Answer: What you are missing is that it clearly indicates on there web site that they over breed there dogs. Do you not agree that a company who mass produces dogs for the purpose of profit and not in the best interest of the dogs is a puppy mill? That is what they indicate they are doing on there web site, just with some sugar coating on top. I'm quoting myself. This was never addressed by the op at all. We keep being told we are missing the point, but the point is they over breed there dogs and they say so right on there web site. Why go all the way to visit them when the answer is clear as day on there web site they are a puppy mill? If she 'got it' she would have clearly stated that she either wasn't going to even consider supporting the Rutland puppymill or that she had no problems with supporting a puppymill and was proud to do so. That is what I was getting at as well. Thank you. Answer: Yup, I'm a puppy mill supporter *rolls eyes* Happy, now? Answer: Obviously I am wasting my time. Hardly any of my questions have been answered and it's clear you won't answer them. I hope the thread has been food for thought and lurkers who have read this will not support this puppy mill. Answer: if you submitted an app to my rescue with two small puppies in the house that you just got, i wouldn't even consider you - no one responsible would give you a third puppy with two young dogs already in the house. Answer: Doberkim- I'm home all day w/my animals and take exceptional care of them. Rescues like yours that count out people that COULD provide caring homes is not fair in my opinion. But, to each their own. Answer: Actually, she does have a point there. You have two pretty young dogs already...despite being home all day, you really can't give enough attention to all of them. Heck, I start to notice a big difference when I bring in just one more dog, for a total of two, and Sawyer is about 3 years old. Not trying to talk you out of ever getting another dog, but I would seriously put it off until your current pups are at least around 2 years old. It will make a huge difference...otherwise you stand the big risk of having a 3-fer pack that doesn't listen because the dogs all bonded with each other more than you. It happens. Answer: it has nothing to do with being able to care for them. its a BAD IDEA to have multiple puppies at once - people think they can handle it all the time, and then things happen - hard to housebreak, hard to train, hard to occupy, hard to control, yadda yadda yadda. no matter how long you are at home, the fact remains that three puppies is a BAD thing, and any breeder that would sell you a third puppy is one who is not acting responsibly. let your current dogs grow up before you bring a third puppy into the picture. Answer: I just can not beleive the place admitts they breed back to back heats and still has people even coming to look at them. Even if it was a purebreed they were breeding after reading that they would definately be off my consideration list. If you don't want to deal with getting approved and having your yard oked and everything then go to a pound. they just adopt top the first person with thirty bucks. They are generally pretty high kill to. Answer: Zoom and Doberkim -- I don't plan on adding a dog to my family for at least the next 6 months minimum. Many Labradoodle breeders have year to 2 year long waiting lists, especially for the coat I'm looking for, which is why I am starting my research so early. I will be on a waiting list for quite some time. Adding a second dog to my home actually went very smoothly for me. The only thing I've noticed in a negative fashion is that Emma has taught Bentley it's fun to chew on the woodwork, lol. That, we're still working on. Currently I'm talking to the Cloud Catcher Labradoodle breeder in Australia and I feel very comfortable with her. All of her animals live with her, are not kenneled and are her pets. If I decide to go w/the labradoodle she will most likely be who I decide to buy from. I do appreciate the concern from everyone, but I know myself and the amount of work I put into my dogs. I know how many hours I spend training and caring for them. I know how HAPPY I am to do that work :) |
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