Shock Collar - when is it ok?

Question:
 http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-9/830079/bailey1.jpg

say hello to Bailey, the newest member to our family. She is only 8 weeks and I want to make sure I do things right. She is the grandpup of the best dog I have ever had who is sadly dieing of cancer. I just have a few questions about some of the more critical things I should and should not do, specificly questions about ever using a shock collar.

First off, I have been taking her everywhere with me and letting her meet TONS of people. I have let her meet some other dogs under controlled situations as well. I have heard this is good to teach a young dog how to socialize with people and other dogs.

I basically have three questions about using a shock collar:

1- On to the shock collar, our last dog had an invisable electric fence cuz our yard is simply too big and complicated to have a normal fence put in. It was her saving grace, she was hit by a car just before we decided to get it put in and she was lucky to fully recover, this was the main reason we got the E-fence. I really dont know if she would still be around if it wasn't for the E-fence. Anyway, I am planning on doing the same thing with Bailey and I was wondering what you guys think about this.

2- Bailey will be a phesant hunting dog and it is very important that she ranges properly and does not go too far out. Most all hunting trainers use a shock collar to train this. what do you think of using a collar in this situation?

3- My sisters dog Max did not get enough attention and sadly still dosn't. He is a good dog but really rowdy. I have tried EVERYTHING and I cant get him to stop jumping up. His problem is he dosnt get enough attention I think, he does things that he knows will make me mad simply for the attention. If I go to leave he will jump up and nip at my hands (not out of aggression at all, this is a golden we are talking about here!). If nobody is paying attention to him he will look for a shoe that he knows if he chews will get him attention. I have treid turning away and ignoring him if he is jumping up but he still continues. I also reward him for coming to me and sitting etc. Should I try the shock collar? I really dont think I should have to but I am out of ideas, any help is appreciated.

Answer:
I would give the pup time to grow up at least.I would not use one until 6 months or older. But what do I know? I have never used one! I'm just that old lady that uses natural tec's like supervision! Just my point of veiw!

Answer:
i think most people on here will say NEVER.

Answer:
Personally, I am very leery of electronic fences. They fail too easily. I've found and returned multiple stray dogs who were supposedly contained by electronic fences. I think you should fence off a smaller portion of your yard if you can't do the whole thing for some reason.

Answer:
I agree with Boemy about the e-fence...just not positive enough. I would use one if it weren't a dangerous place like where I live in the middle of nowhere and if my dog got out, it was no big deal. But if you're on a road or anywhere close...... not secure or positive enough.
Regarding the e-collar to train a dog basic obedience? Absolutely not. You can find out how to train a pup without that. You're doing right by paying attention to your sister's dog when he sits nicely for a pat. He is not doing things to try to make you mad. He doesn't have the ability to think all that through. Just think about it....what kind of complicated thought process would he have to have to figure that out? He'd have to know how humans think, what things make you have what kinds of emotions, how to go about choosing some specific behavior to fit into your value system which might likely make you mad. He'd have to be aware of a connection between his actions and your internal thought processing. That's way beyond the ability of a dog to be that complex. That said, dogs do make connections between a behavior and consequence as in getting attention by jumping up. It's also how they often greet a friend. It's like shaking hands is to human friends. Is everyone who interacts with him consistantly ignoring him when he jumps up? Or is he getting a payoff for it here and there? It has to be very consistant and methodical....absolutley no attention, no look, no words, no nothing. And the instant he sits nicely, praise and even a treat...every time, no exceptions and you need to stick with it for weeks, not try it for a few days and say, "it's not working." It HAS worked up to now for him or he wouldn't be doing it. Dogs do what works for them. So since it has worked, he's going to try it again and again for a while. Once he finds that it never works (after weeks) he will give that behavior up and take on the behavior which DOES give him a payoff. Make sure that you praise and give him a yummy treat when he sits nicely for attention....every time for now. Later you can treat randomly.
How much exercise is he getting? Big dogs need exercise and plenty of it as well as obedience practice. Their body and brain needs exercise. If they're bored, understimulated, that's when rotten behavior shows up. They don't know what to do with themselves and they find their own way.
You're doing well to socialize your puppy. Keep up the good work. Practice cutting nails and baths, seeing people with weird hats, umbrellas, all kinds of enviroments, different people, little kids, medium sized kids, big kids.
I recommend that when your puppy is through with his shots that you get into an obedience class for puppies with a positive method trainer who uses gentle methods, motivation and reward, not stern treatment. Make sure the trainer has a good reputation.
Browse the forum for more information. Read books; Culture Clash is a great book, The Power of Positive Training is another. There are more.
You can teach your pup to not go out too far without using an e-collar. I've done this with my dogs when we go on off leash hikes by reinforcing them whn they stay within a certain distance. There are lots of tricks to training and you don't need an e-collar IMO. And especially not on a puppy. There are some horrible side effects when done incorrectly or on a particularily sensative dog. First get your basic obedience, (very short sessions, all fun) socializing and lots of romping and exercise (without be excessive to damage bones) with your pup. (I highly recommend a puppy class with a good trainer) You can get lots of help that way.
Here's a helpful link:
http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/index.htm

Answer:
Honestly...I would NEVER use a shock collar! :mad:
There WAY to many thing that can and will go wrong with them! :(
All the stories I have heard about them either lead to the dog getting out of te fence...and them well...cannot get back in!
Or the fence breaking (yes my friend has one and it does not work all the time :rolleyes: ) to where the dog "could" get out with no problem! :mad:

Answer:
BTW...your pup is adorable. If you are kind and patient and use methods which promote explicit trust between you and your pup, you'll be amazed at how "into" training he'll be, how much better he'll learn HOW to learn and how strong your bond will be. I don't like the idea of electric shock collars unless it's a life threatening situation and no other methods have been used successfully. Hope all goes well and hope to see more pictures of that little cutie.

Answer:
Another problem with e-fences is that it doesn't prevent other animals from coming in. :(
Joshwake, from what I understand, people who use e-collars for training don't do it until the dog is full grown and already has been taught all its commands. It's purely a correction, not a teaching aid. I would definitely talk to an expert before using one.

Answer:
If you need hunting-related training advice Chazhound is not that place for that. Try another forum such as versatiledogs.com, gundogforum.com or uplandjournal.com.

Answer:
The way I think about it is, would you use a shock collar to train one of your children?

Answer:
Momof7 will have more input as she actually has hunting dogs.

Answer:
I don't like the E-fence, personally, and would never train a puppy on it.
The e-collar used in hunt training isn't something I strongly oppose. The dogs are usually older and the people who use the collars typically know what they are doing.
When is using a shock collar to correct minor obedience problems "okay"? Never. The only thing I'd use it for is proofing off-lead commands, and even then, only if I had a working dog or a dog that needed to be off-lead for some reason. Max is a high-energy, social dog who obviously is not getting enough attention. Shocking him for making you aware of his loneliness is a horrible idea. I'm willing to bet if people paid him more attention for GOOD behavior (lying down calmly? go smother him with love) the destructive behavior would stop almost entirely.
Your pup is a doll.

Answer:
I've known plenty of hunting dogs (my Dad's friends) who were exceptionally well trained, push button... and no e-collar was used on them.

Answer:
I'm not a fan of the electric fence either, for the main reason that other animals/dogs can enter and leave at will.
I think the E collar could be a useful tool for certain situations, but definitely not something you'd ever want to use on a young dog.

Answer:
At 8 weeks old... Play, Play and more PLAY!
http://www.ridogguy.com/trainingsuppliesandbooks.html
Is a good resource for positive training gun dogs.
http://p211.ezboard.com/bgundogandbirddogforums
Is a good gundog training forum.

Answer:
(not out of aggression at all, this is a golden we are talking about here!). [/B]If nobody is paying attention to him he will look for a shoe that he knows if he chews will get him attention. I have treid turning away and ignoring him if he is jumping up but he still continues. I also reward him for coming to me and sitting etc. Should I try the shock collar? I really dont think I should have to but I am out of ideas, any help is appreciated.
First, Goldens ARE capable of biting. All dogs are.
He should really be taken to training. I'm not sure it's your place to use a chock collar on your sisters dog..JMO. But it IS nice that you want to try and help him. Trying to train him is very generous of you :D
A shock collar is generally used with an aggressive dog, in my experience.
Not so much for setting boundaries, I believe there are other ways of doing that.

Answer:
I basically have three questions about using a shock collar:

1- On to the shock collar, our last dog had an invisable electric fence cuz our yard is simply too big and complicated to have a normal fence put in. It was her saving grace, she was hit by a car just before we decided to get it put in and she was lucky to fully recover, this was the main reason we got the E-fence. I really dont know if she would still be around if it wasn't for the E-fence. Anyway, I am planning on doing the same thing with Bailey and I was wondering what you guys think about this.

2- Bailey will be a phesant hunting dog and it is very important that she ranges properly and does not go too far out. Most all hunting trainers use a shock collar to train this. what do you think of using a collar in this situation?

3- My sisters dog Max did not get enough attention and sadly still dosn't. He is a good dog but really rowdy. I have tried EVERYTHING and I cant get him to stop jumping up. His problem is he dosnt get enough attention I think, he does things that he knows will make me mad simply for the attention. If I go to leave he will jump up and nip at my hands (not out of aggression at all, this is a golden we are talking about here!). If nobody is paying attention to him he will look for a shoe that he knows if he chews will get him attention. I have treid turning away and ignoring him if he is jumping up but he still continues. I also reward him for coming to me and sitting etc. Should I try the shock collar? I really dont think I should have to but I am out of ideas, any help is appreciated.
I would not use the collar for aggressiveness.
An E-collar is only used to reinforce known commands.
I would not put it on a puppy under the age of 6mo.
Your questions regarding the use of an e-collar will be better answered on either one of these forums. http://retrievertraining.net/forums or http://www.refugeforums.com/refuge/index.php.
There are plenty of pro trainers who frequent those sites. There are a few that have training books and videos out there too that often answer training questions. Evan Graham is one of them.
No offense to my beloved Chaz members and know that when I say this I respect your views...
Most Chaz members here are very much against using an E-Collar. If you want to know about them and how to properly use them and know when to use it ect ect. Start out by asking questions on those forums then find yourself a reputable pro trainer who uses them and work side by side with them.
Someone said it in this thread that alot can go wrong with the use of them.
I agree. In the wrong hands much damage can be done. In the right hands you have National field champions and successful dogs who earn titles and perform excellent. Not miserable unhappy depressed scared dogs, but focused, well trained, playful and happy dogs. Thats been my experience and the experience of many others who use this training collar as a training tool.

Congratulations on your new pup and welcome to Chaz http://www.northeastfoto.com/forums/images/smilies/happy2.gif

Answer:
. It's also how they often greet a friend. It's like shaking hands is to human friends. Is everyone who interacts with him consistantly ignoring him when he jumps up? Or is he getting a payoff for it here and there? It has to be very consistant and methodical....absolutley no attention, no look, no words, no nothing. And the instant he sits nicely, praise and even a treat...every time, no exceptions and you need to stick with it for weeks, not try it for a few days and say, "it's not working." It HAS worked up to now for him or he wouldn't be doing it. Dogs do what works for them. So since it has worked, he's going to try it again and again for a while. Once he finds that it never works (after weeks) he will give that behavior up and take on the behavior which DOES give him a payoff. Make sure that you praise and give him a yummy treat when he sits nicely for attention....every time for now. Later you can treat randomly.
How much exercise is he getting? Big dogs need exercise and plenty of it as well as obedience practice. Their body and brain needs exercise. If they're bored, understimulated, that's when rotten behavior shows up. They don't know what to do with themselves and they find their own way.
You're doing well to socialize your puppy. Keep up the good work. Practice cutting nails and baths, seeing people with weird hats, umbrellas, all kinds of enviroments, different people, little kids, medium sized kids, big kids.
I recommend that when your puppy is through with his shots that you get into an obedience class for puppies with a positive method trainer who uses gentle methods, motivation and reward, not stern treatment. Make sure the trainer has a good reputation.
Browse the forum for more information. Read books; Culture Clash is a great book, The Power of Positive Training is another. There are more.
You can teach your pup to not go out too far without using an e-collar. I've done this with my dogs when we go on off leash hikes by reinforcing them whn they stay within a certain distance. There are lots of tricks to training and you don't need an e-collar IMO. And especially not on a puppy. There are some horrible side effects when done incorrectly or on a particularily sensative dog. First get your basic obedience, (very short sessions, all fun) socializing and lots of romping and exercise (without be excessive to damage bones) with your pup. (I highly recommend a puppy class with a good trainer) You can get lots of help that way.
Here's a helpful link:
http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/index.htm
Sounds like some good advice here, Doberluv!
I've had this problem for awhile but never really put forth the effort to solve it. I have tried ignoring him on occasion, but usually I'm just as excited to see him after a long day of work as he is to see me...and at most I've done it a few days in a row, but I either forget or don't enough discipline to ignore him for that long.
Also, he tends jump on strangers/friends who invariabely will either react by giving him attention or get freaked out or excited as well, and jump around or wave their arms in the air or something like that.
So my question is how long it will take to "unlearn" that behaviour?
My puppy is a Lab mix (with german shepherd supposedly, but possibley Rot or Doberman cuz of similiar markings) and is about 6-7 months old.

Answer:
You'll need to enlist the help of your friends and family...have a serious talk with them before they come around your dog again....you could say something like, "I'm trying to train my dog not to jump up on people. It's bad manners and I need to teach him a polite way of greeting people. Could you help me? When you come over, will you please ignore him? Don't even look at him, turn your back if he jumps on you, don't talk to him or touch him? And he'll sit because he'll be wondering what's going on. When he sits, will you then squat down and hold him against you and pat him then....give him affection and a small treat? Then repeat as necessary? I'd really, really appreciate it." You sometimes have to make a real point to people. If he is interacted with this way consistantly, no exceptions, I would guess that within about 2 weeks, his behavior can be modified....for him to find out that it absolutely is not working to jump up....nothing good happens at all. He's ignored and that sucks. LOL. BUT, he's going to start seeing that every single time (needs lots of reinforcements) he sits for a greeting, wonderful things happen; he gets attention, scratches behind the ears, social interaction, a little piece of hot dog or other treat. There's just no other choice for him but to choose the way which gives him what he likes. But you gotta be consistant and tenatious, everyone does. Later, when he's sitting nicely 95 percent of the time...reliable, you can cut out the treats except for sometimes if you want. Mostly what he wants is attention for this behavior. Treats just give him a little extra prize when he's learning.
You can even practice more times by just going outside for 5 minutes and coming back in. You don't have to wait for those times when you really are coming in from being gone. And I mentioned squatting down to his level. That can help at first to keep him on all fours. As he gets reinforced for this a few times, vary your position from standing facing him, to standing turned a little sideways to being a few feet away from him so he learns that no matter where someone is standing or how, he only gets reinforced for sitting for a greeting. (Or standing on all fours...whatever you want him to learn) I think it's really nice for dogs to sit. I never did that with mine. For me...it's fine as long as they're on all fours. It just personal preferrence on that. Just decide and then don't reinforce until the dog is where you want him. (reinforcements aren't just rewards. They're rewards the dog loves. AND they're only reinforcers if they affect behavior. So, when people think they're reinforcing a behavior, sometimes they're really not)
So with any behavior you're trying to teach, be sure you find a motivator which your dog loves and use it to your advantage. Sometimes it's not a treat. For example, the dog wants to go outside really badly and is being pushy at the door. You can teach him to sit/wait until you give a release word. Opening the door to let him out IS the reinforcer for that sit/wait behavior and waiting for the "OK." He's probably not thinking about a treat. He's thinking about getting out the door. So, that's a "life" reward as opposed to a food or toy reward. It's sort of a natural reinforcer. So, depending on the situation, there are all kinds of reinforcers.
Also pay attention to what the dog may be getting from engaging in some behavior. Sometimes it's not immediately apparent. You have to think and ask yourself, "What is it he's getting by doing that awful thing?" Then take steps to eliminate that...to intercept, interrupt, re-direct to another behavior which he can be rewarded for....that kind of thing.
Keep us posted. Good luck!

Answer:
Chaz is not the place to discuss the use of an e-collar, although I agree with many points.
As Kris said, there are plenty of other forums that will you help you greatly while using the e-collar for field purposes.
But I must agree that your pup is much to young for an e-collar. And as mentioned above, basic obedience skills can be taught with other methods.
When your dog is older, and your working on the many off lead, distance work skills, than I would look into an e-collar with the help and knowledge of someone who knows what they're doing.
Good luck :D

Answer:
Chaz is not the place to discuss the use of an e-collar, although I agree with many points.
As Kris said, there are plenty of other forums that will you help you greatly while using the e-collar for field purposes.
But I must agree that your pup is much to young for an e-collar. And as mentioned above, basic obedience skills can be taught with other methods.
When your dog is older, and your working on the many off lead, distance work skills, than I would look into an e-collar with the help and knowledge of someone who knows what they're doing.
Good luck :D
Why is Chaz not a good place to discuss the use of an e-collar? There is a wealth of knowledge here and many professionals (trainers and behaviorists) who really do know what they're talking about.:confused:

Answer:
Other than Kris, I do not know of *anyone* on Chaz who uses the e-collar for field work.
The OP was speaking of using the e-collar to train a hunting dog.
Generally speaking, the e-collar is not the first option for many here on Chaz, I'm in no way saying either or is wrong, but the majority of people training for hunt tests and such do use an e-collar.
How many people here on Chaz use an e-collar?
Not many, I could probably count on both of my hands the CHazzers who have used an e-collar once or twice to proof a recall or something of the sort, but there are not many on Chaz that use the e-collar for field work.
I agree Colleen, that there are plenty of knowledgeable dog people on this board, but you must agree that the majority of them do not agree with e-collar use, as this thread suggests.
As I've come to realize, from speaking with a few people who do hunt tests in my area, the use of the e-collar for that event is very common. The stigma of the e-collar in other areas such as obedience does not carry over to field work.
And as I mentioned before, Kris is the only one I know of here on Chaz that competes in hunt trials.
With all that said, don't forget my first post. I did state that using an e-collar on a puppy is wrong, and I'm not advising the OP to go get info on a forum than use it on the puppy right away. I also stated, that there is no need to use the e-collar to teach basic obedience skills.

Answer:
First, Goldens ARE capable of biting. All dogs are.
He should really be taken to training. I'm not sure it's your place to use a chock collar on your sisters dog..JMO. But it IS nice that you want to try and help him. Trying to train him is very generous of you :D
A shock collar is generally used with an aggressive dog, in my experience.
Not so much for setting boundaries, I believe there are other ways of doing that.
Actually, I think that Goldens have one of highest bite ratios in North America, but then, there are a LOT of Goldens out there.
I have never heard of anyone who knows anything about dogs and correct e-collar usage using an e-collar for aggression. An e-collar is often counterproductive with aggression, as it can infuriate an aggressive dog even more and/or "correct" out the warning signs, resulting in a dog that will escalate from calm to bite with nothing in between. Growls, raised tails, curled lips, etc. are SIGNS from our dogs - we need to watch this body language and listen to it, not train it away.
I have no experience with invisible fencing, but I do understand that they require training, not just letting the dog outside with the collar on.
... If you want to know about them (e-collars) and how to properly use them and know when to use it ect ect. Start out by asking questions on those forums then find yourself a reputable pro trainer who uses them and work side by side with them.
Someone said it in this thread that alot can go wrong with the use of them.
I agree. In the wrong hands much damage can be done. In the right hands you have National field champions and successful dogs who earn titles and perform excellent. Not miserable unhappy depressed scared dogs, but focused, well trained, playful and happy dogs.
I agree 100%. I've seen dogs that are PROPERLY trained with an e-collar get so very excited whenever their trainer/owner grabs the collar. The dog UNDERSTANDS the collar, it is a clear, concise way to communicate to the dog, and it is never used to cause physical pain.
Chaz is not the place to discuss the use of an e-collar, although I agree with many points.
Why is this NOT the place to discuss it? Is it in the rules someplace that different training methods may not be discussed? The e-collar is a tool, just like a choke chain or prong collar. All three can cause damage to a dog physically and mentally if used improperly. All three can be abusive in the wrong hands. We need to be able to discuss these things - they are important. It is important to have accurate knowledge posted, not just "You're evil and abuse your dog if you consider using one."
But I must agree that your pup is much to young for an e-collar. And as mentioned above, basic obedience skills can be taught with other methods.
As far as I am aware, people that exclusively train with e-collars would beg to differ on this point. Teaching the dog right from puppyhood what the stim from the e-collar means is not all that different from teaching a puppy right from puppyhood what the click of a clicker means. Yes, they are two completely different training theories/methods, but with clicker training, the puppy needs to LEARN that the click means that behavior they just did exactly when the click came is the RIGHT behavior. With the e-collar, the stim means they are not doing something right - again, TWO DIFFERENT THEORIES, but both require teaching the dog what each means.
Using an e-collar properly, to train a dog, takes a lot of learning on the part of the person holding the remote. I own an e-collar. Before I bought mine, I spent YEARS researching the training methods. I took YEARS to make the decision to buy one. I have a "sensitive" breed. I did not want to risk buying an e-collar and using it improperly and risk possibly ruining my dogs. If you screw up on a regular collar and over-correct, that can be hard to "fix". If you do the same thing with an e-collar, you could ruin the dog. I do NOT agree with e-collars being used to "correct" bad behavior. All of my research has told me that this is NOT what e-collars are designed for. This is not the way they are meant to be used. This is one reason why I do not agree with bark collars. They are strictly correction based. Bark and you will get hurt. And the bark collar does hurt. It's not a slight stim (meaning tingling sensation). A stim of an e-collar should be a tickle. It should not be a painful thing.

Answer:
So, Spiritus, you would condone the use of an e-collar on an 8 week old puppy? :eek:
6 months would be the youngest and even still, the purpose of the e-collar is to reinforce behaviours that the dog already understands. I do not understand how an e-collar would be effective on a puppy, there are basically NO behaviours that are TRULY understood to reinforce.
I already answered why the discussion of using an e-collar for field work would be futile on Chaz. It has already become clear on this thread.
There are a vast number of methods that you can use with the e-collar.
The one that has become more prominent from my discussions with people who use the e-collar often, is it is REINFORCEMENT of already known behaviours. I still don't understand how a young puppy can be "reinforced" for a behaviour it does not yet understand.... :confused:

Answer:
The die-hard tried and true e-collar trainers do not use an e-collar to reinforce anything. They use it to teach. I am NOT a die-hard tried and true e-collar user. This is what I found in my research.
Sorry about asking the "Why not" question a second time, I did not see your post before I posted my reply.
I would NOT recommend anyone who does not completely understand e-collar theory and methods to use it on a puppy of 8 weeks, nor on any dog. I was just stating that those who exclusively DO use the collar use it right from the start.
I used to be a person who said NEVER when it came to e-collars. I also used to be a person who said NEVER to clickers. I have learned to never say never - I have one e-collar and a multitude of clickers all over my house... And what I LOVE about having dogs is learning about them, learning about different training methods and thoroughly understanding those methods. That does not mean I use them, but I would like to think that I am open to learning as much as possible. I believe it makes me a better owner, and a better breeder, being able to offer support to my puppy people in whatever area of training and whatever method of training they decide to use.
I don't believe in saying "Don't do that just because it's bad...", then hearing "Why", and then answering "It just is". I believe in having an educated opinion. IMO, BECAUSE is not an answer.

Answer:
I totally agree that it is more than likely that someone who understands the uses of an e-collar inside and out could use it on a puppy and still make it as any learning experience. I do understand.
I guess it's just personally, the method that makes most sense to me when using something like an e-collar is to reinforce already known behaviours.
I see nothing wrong with the use of an e-collar, personally, where I am now, I have one, and until I see anymore uses for it, it will sit in the dogs cupboard. With my dogs, I've used it where I felt it was needed and we use other methods for other things.
And as I mentioned before, what I've come to realize is that the e-collar in relation to teaching skills for hunt trials is like a leash for those who train in obedience.

Answer:
The die-hard tried and true e-collar trainers do not use an e-collar to reinforce anything. They use it to teach. I am NOT a die-hard tried and true e-collar user. This is what I found in my research.
Sorry about asking the "Why not" question a second time, I did not see your post before I posted my reply.
I would NOT recommend anyone who does not completely understand e-collar theory and methods to use it on a puppy of 8 weeks, nor on any dog. I was just stating that those who exclusively DO use the collar use it right from the start.
I used to be a person who said NEVER when it came to e-collars. I also used to be a person who said NEVER to clickers. I have learned to never say never - I have one e-collar and a multitude of clickers all over my house... And what I LOVE about having dogs is learning about them, learning about different training methods and thoroughly understanding those methods. That does not mean I use them, but I would like to think that I am open to learning as much as possible. I believe it makes me a better owner, and a better breeder, being able to offer support to my puppy people in whatever area of training and whatever method of training they decide to use.
I don't believe in saying "Don't do that just because it's bad...", then hearing "Why", and then answering "It just is". I believe in having an educated opinion. IMO, BECAUSE is not an answer.
I couldnt have said it better myself.

Answer:
You know, you CAN use e-fences with other fencing as well, to help with jumpers and climbers. ;) Dont put them down so badly.

Answer:
I know a person who has an extremely DA Pit Bull. She attacked MY dog, and after that, she used a shock collar.
She could read her dog very well, so when she's see her giving another dog the "eye", she'd shock her, and she'd snap out of it, and walk away.
That's what I meant by using it for aggression.

Answer:
I know a person who has an extremely DA Pit Bull. She attacked MY dog, and after that, she used a shock collar.
i think that is extremely foolish and a good way to exacerbate the dog's natural aggression.

Answer:
I know a person who has an extremely DA Pit Bull. She attacked MY dog, and after that, she used a shock collar.
She could read her dog very well, so when she's see her giving another dog the "eye", she'd shock her, and she'd snap out of it, and walk away.
That's what I meant by using it for aggression.
This is about the worst thing that can be done to a DA dog. Pain in the presence of a trigger "teaches" nothing except that they were absolutly right to agress towards this trigger that they now associate with pain.
Shock collars teach nothing. As far as a reinforcer, MomOf7 was exactly right to call them a reinforcer, a reinforcer by definition is something positive or negative..fortunately the use of a shock is really unnecessary as proofing ANY behavior can be done absolutely reliably using positive reinforcers.
I have to add that the notion that hunting dogs are any different because the risk of injury is greater doesn't make much sense. Hit by car...is one of the highest risks that dogs face and teaching a reliable recall is taught every day without shock collars. The reason that it's still used in many hunting circles is that it's passed from trainer to trainer without trying to learn new techniques, not because it's required to teach the skill required for hunting dogs.:confused:

Answer:
She could read her dog very well, so when she's see her giving another dog the "eye", she'd shock her, and she'd snap out of it, and walk away.
And I do not understand this. Dogs do give each other hard eye contact. It is very common, and so VERY easy to redirect. Put yourself between the two dogs, call the dog away with you. IMO/IME, "zapping" a dog that is giving the warning signs that they are uncomfortable will just stop the dog from giving the hard eye contact/other signs, and the dog will just look at the other out of the corner of his eye then plunge right into aggression.
Correcting for the warning signs of aggression does not stop the aggression, nor does it "fix" the problem - it stops the warning signs. This, IMO, makes a dog much more dangerous than a dog that gives warning signs that are read and then dealt with by the handler (ie. redirection, leaving the area, etc.).

Answer:
when is a shock collar ok to use?
when youve put it round your own neck, turned it onto the highest setting and give yourself a good zap.
if you find the feeling even remotley OK enough to want to put it on your dog...get yourself to a dr, you need medication because its PAINFULL
and teaches a dog nothing other then, "well if i growl when im afriad i get a shock, so instead ill just skip the warning phase...and move into the attack phase"
and e-fences are much to easy for a dog to run across and then not want to come Back because of fear of shock, they get so riled up when they see somehting they want that they run across the fenceline wihtout a thought of the pain, but once it comes time to come back home and the adremaline isnt pumping...well would you want to cross a line when you got hurt for doing so?!
there is no reason other than pure lazyness and lack of knowledge to use a shock collar especially for recall to train a dog. instead put a little extra time in.

Answer:
when youve put it round your own neck, turned it onto the highest setting and give yourself a good zap.
On the lowest setting it's nothing more than an annoyance. I've felt it myself. Granted, I also turned it up to level five just to see what it was like and about jumped out of my skin. LOL
But it's really not painful at all when you keep it low.

Answer:
On the lowest setting it's nothing more than an annoyance. I've felt it myself. Granted, I also turned it up to level five just to see what it was like and about jumped out of my skin. LOL
But it's really not painful at all when you keep it low.
You turned it up to five? LOL. I stopped at 3.5. I've never had to work a dog much higher than 1 and a bit.
Every dog works at a different level. They key is finding the level that the dog "notices". When finding the "working level" for a dog, you start at zero, then work your way up. A sign of "noticing" could be an ear flick, blink of the eyes, something really small. AND, depending on the day, the dog could be working at a different level. Working level should be "found" each and every time the dog wears the collar because each and every time it could be different.

Answer:
You turned it up to five? LOL.
I'm curious by nature. I couldn't stop myself. I regretted it afterward. LOL
I've had to go up to level 2 on some dogs, but you're right that 1 or so usually does the trick.

Answer:
i have no doubt that when used properly they can be used in such a way is an annoyance, but ive seen people without a clue on level 4-5 and some keep going up.
one guy i knew put it on level 9 on his dog and the dog neer well had a heart attack so i put it on him on the same level. needless to say hes never used the collar since and actually reaserched more "user frinedly" methods. his dog is very well behaved now.
its like any other training method, unfortunatly there are too many out there without a clue how to use the product. Myself, ive never found a reason to use one. the closest ot an e-collar i had was one that vibrated (DID NOT SHOCK) and i trained my deaf dane to recall with it but that mearly vibrated, and i used it on myself first to see if it hurt or if it was comfortable...:)

Answer:
Even if it isn't sheer pain or terrifying, personally, I like my dogs doing something to earn something....to work toward, not work to avoid. I think it makes for better momentum in all kinds of areas, keeps them forward thinking. If they're worked patiently and correctly, they will get there.
A Doberman is a normally a very high drive dog. They have Greyhound in their make up for heaven's sake, among other things. They may have Weim in them, Great Dane (mastiff), Rottweiler, of course, Manchester Terrier, some Shepherd (I forget....Tev.....?) and then some.
They do have a propensity toward obedience since they're bred to work close to their person. But I think Labs for instance are too. They can be awfully distractable sometimes, especially when young. Lyric comes whether in mid chase of a squirrel or deer very reliably. He messed up once and I had to call him twice and that was when he was running a bear off the property and had Jose as his partner in crime. But regularily on hikes and so forth, he's very, very reliable. And I didn't have to use a shock collar on him. But it didn't happen overnight. That I can tell you. I think people want instant results or near instant and that's why they turn to things like shock collars. They don't want to go through the arduous step by step training. They skip ahead or skip something the dog hasn't mastered and then say that positive methods don't work. The dog can't be expected to be reliable on difficult things when he hasn't gotten reliable on easier things. Like......stay. No one expects a dog to stay for 10 minutes when he can't stay for 10 seconds. Step by step. And he can't stay for 10 seconds in the midst of squirrels and cats running around until he can stay for 2 seconds with all that going on.
It's true....some dogs are harder to find what motivates them. But the things that normally don't motivate them enough can be made to be more valuable to them.
So, my point is....if a dog can be taught to be reliable without a shock collar (and they can and they are) then why use a shock collar? If a dog can be taught to heel beautifully using motivation, enticement, reward and no aversives....etc.... (they can and they are) then why use a prong or choke collar and "corrections?" And I am talking about dogs with varying degrees of sensativity and personalities. It's not so much the differences in dogs, I don't think as it is in the need to make differences, variations, creativity within the bounds of motivation and reward based training.

Answer:
So, my point is....if a dog can be taught to be reliable without a shock collar (and they can and they are) then why use a shock collar?
Because I've found that not every dog is the same. And not every dog will respond the way your Lyric does, or the way my Bear does. I've NEVER physically corrected Bear. I don't need too. He is such an awesome worker and truly does live to please me. There's no need for me to correct him because to him, I'm already better than squirrels, other dogs, or anything else he might be distracted from. That's just his personality. He lives to work and lives to be with me.
Not every dog thinks that way. And even after extensive positive training, not every dog will be reliable and that has nothing to do with how well the methods are applied.
I think a lot of people make it seem like all dogs learn a certain way and that if you take a certain path you'll get the same results everytime and that just isn't the case. Dogs have personalities, they are not robots, and while using 100% positive reinforcement may work on some dogs, it may not work on others.
If you've truly never met a dog that needed more than simple positive reinforcement to get him to comply under exteme distractions and be reliable off leash....then you are either very lucky, have only worked with certain breeds that are prone to work well with humans in the first place, or haven't worked with enough dogs. Or, you have a different definition for 'reliable' than I do.
Because they do exsist, those dogs that would rather gaze off into space than respond to you no matter how often you practice, how well you apply the positive methods, or good you are at guessing what motivate him.
Just my opinion of course, but you asked why use corrections and this why I choose to use them. Because they work when in certain cases when other methods alone do not.
Now, I'm sure someone will come along and say every single dog on the planet can be trained perfectly using zero corrections, and that I'm just "not doing it right', and if you want to beilive that go right ahead. But that doesn't make it fact.
Not trying to be snarky here, just answering your question. I bielve I've probably said this before in the past in other threads, but what the heck, I'm long widned anyway, so I don't mind saying it again. LOL

Answer:
I just have to add that the setting I used on Roxy, even though I understand you can't really compare human "feelings" to dog, wasn't that bad at all.
*I* personally did not feel it at it's highest setting, but my bf did :D And I don't think it was "comfortable" ROFL.
I can't go past 3 without spazzing out a bit. But I agree Spiritus that every dog works at a different setting, some will work wonderfully with it at .5, others would ignore it. *shrugs*

Answer:
My old mentor told me one thing she did with a shock collar that I didn't think was all that bad. She has horses and herding dogs. To get the dogs to learn on their own to stay away from the back end of the horse, she would give a very mild stimulation, only enough to illicit a bkink and ear twitch, whenever they approached the "danger zone". The way she explained it was that the dog then learned on it's own that the stimulation was "coming from" that area and would then avoid it without a verbal anything from her.
Maybe you horsey people know a different method, and I'd love to hear it. But in this case, I think a mild "buzz" is a lot better than a hoof to the head or ribs.

Answer:
He messed up once and I had to call him twice and that was when he was running a bear off the property and had Jose as his partner in crime.
Umm...isn't Jose a Chihuahua? And he chased off a bear? That poor bear must have taken a lot of ribbing for that from his buddies!:D

Answer:
Yes, Jose, the Chihuahua also ran a bear off before I had Lyric...single handedly. LOL. It wasn't funny at the time. Between Jose and me yelling at Jose, the poor bear ran for his life. It was a young bear.
Zoom, yes...if it's between a horses hoof and a shock, I'd go for the shock too. In my case, the hoses I had as an adult were when I had a GSD and a Lab....not at the same time. Both dogs were loved by the horses and the horses which might be more skittish...the dogs seemed to know and kept back enough. One of my Arabian mares was so sweet natured and docile around the dog that Bonnie, my Lab could walk under her and that wouldn't perturb Brisa. They would touch noses and give eachother kisses. My other mare was another story. It bugged her to have dogs too close. When I went on rides, sometimes a neighbor's dog came along too. Bonnie would be up ahead and Sammy (the neighbor's dog) would head up the rear. Filinha, the other mare did kick out a little kick a time or two, missing....or perhaps not wanting to hurt the dog, just warning and Sammy finally learned to stay back. Bonnie was smarter or more cautious and just never did get too close to that horse.
As a kid, my horse did get my Lab mix with a front hoor. He was a little more ornery. That did scare me as it rolled poor old Bruno. He too learned. But it was lucky none of the dogs got hurt. And an even more ornery horse could really do a number on a dog.