SFE- Today... *dun dun dun*

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 So, first off, the e-collar was on Roxy today. But no stimulation.
RD, my trainer actually suggested a method quite similar to yours. So that's how we did the SFE today. Not soo much stress on the "watch me" today, to make her more nervous, but she could glance over at my trainer.
THERE WERE *NO* LIP CURLS TODAY! NONE AT ALL!
Me, or my trainer couldn't believe it. The lip curl has now descended down to a lip lick. Which is similar to a yawn, a sign of nervousness.
My trainer stood off to the side. I said "watch me" once. If she looked away than looked back on her own, she got a "YES!", "GOOD GIRL!". And my trainer would step a little closer. Same thing, she only looked in her direction, than would look back at me, followed by verbal praise. When she was aware that my trainer was at her side, but keeping eye contact with me, she would lightly stroke, just the middle part of her back, feed her a treat, and without returning back to her side, release her with a handful of weiners. NOT ONE LIP CURL! NOT ONE! I am so amazed! I didn't even have to USE the e-collar! It appears the one session with it last week got the message through to her.
And the last SFE we did, was like one in a real trial! She licked her lips/nose when she "examined" her, but didn't look back at her or anything else. I returned back to heel position as normal and she got a few large chunks of hot dog.
My trainer appeared to be in shock! LOL. I kind of still am! In one week, we've gone from a dog that would snarl as soon as my trainer approached, to a dog that licks her nose!!! LICKS HER NOSE!! We've got a long way to go before she's super comfortable but hey, this is soo much more than I could've ever expected in A WEEK! ONE DA*N WEEK!
She has two lessons next week a group and a private, so we're going to practice as much as we can with this new technique, so she can be rewarded and praised HEAVILY.
After the reaction from a few respected members on my decision to use the collar, I didn't feel guilty, but pondered if perhaps I had made the right decision. I surely felt that it would've had to have been used much longer than this, but from her reaction today, I think I've used it for it's worth already!
It just took that one session... Three five minute sessions of the SFE...
I'm going to try and get a video of it next week to show all of you! I AM SOOO HAPPY!
Perhaps the decision to use the e-collar wasn't the best, but it's worked! And, as of today, both my trainer and I feel that she probably won't be needing it anymore. I mean, it's been months and months and she always snarled. And today, even without stimulation, she just didn't. As soon as she went into the position, she seemed to remember to keep eye contact, and unlike last week, I didn't correct her for a quick glance at my trainer. And by herself, she glanced, than looked right back at me, where she got verbal praise.
ACK DARN! I'm just so happy! Firstly that, it's unbelievable to me, and secondly that it appears I won't have to be using the collar on her anymore! That one session with it, really sent her the message!
So be looking next week for a vid of Roxy's new and SUPER improved stand for examination. And for all of you positive trainers out there, don't worry, there will be no zapping involved! WAHOOO!

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Way to go, both of you! :D :D What a huge step forward. I'm so glad you found something that works. I hope she continues to improve!

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Huzzah! I truely hope this continues to improve for you!
Hey, now I know where all of Sawyer's good behavior went to..he sent it through those canine ethereal connections to Roxy! He was being such a twit for his sit/stays and greetings tonight; kept getting up!

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Yippee. You've now taught your dog not to SHOW her insecurity. That's really great.
Sorry, but I can't be thrilled for you. I am absolutely saddened that you can't realize what you're doing, and how wrong it is. You didn't need a shock today because your dog has already figured out that curling the lip is going to result in something she really doesn't like. By not curling the lip, she's learned to avoid that feeling. I have no doubt that she's not any more comfortable. She's just learned not to show it. You can't take a dog with issues like that and use a strong aversive and have the dog get "better" like you've described. You're looking at this as a cure and all it is is a band-aid.
I hope to hell you never put that dog into an obedience trial now. You have set her up to really let loose on some judge. When that happens, you will have the stigma of having caused it to happen - it will be 100% YOUR fault. You've given her more reason to dislike someone approaching her, but you've taken away the signals she gives in order to keep it from happening. You have done a terrible thing, in my opinion as a trainer.
It's sickening that a title is so important to you. When your dog loses it and snaps and maybe even connects with a judge, it will be another bad mark against rottweilers as well as a bad mark against you AND your "trainer" (who is no trainer as far as I'm concerned).
I feel bad for all the people on the forum who spent hours and hours giving you good advice. Instead of taking the time to really work through this, you went for the quick "fix" - the epitome of the lazy trainer - and you have probably ruined an otherwise good dog in the process.
Melanie and the gang in Alaska

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Melanie, if I read her post correctly, she tried something different today . . . No e-collar.

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Melanie, if I read her post correctly, she tried something different today . . . No e-collar.
Her first line said Roxie wore the e-collar today. She may not have zapped her, but the threat was definitely there, as was the intent.
But regardless - even if she hadn't had the e-collar on that dog - she used it to create a false attitude. The dog isn't stupid. How many zaps DOES it take to teach a dog not to curl a lip? Obviously not that many with this particular dog. But there is NO FIX here. She's merely given the dog a reason to fear curling her lip. Now the dog is afraid to show her lack of security.
It's like sitting on a ticking time bomb. If she had worked through this, taken the time (a year, maybe, or more if NECESSARY) and taught her dog that there was nothing to fear and that the lip curl wasn't needed, then I could see maybe trying the dog in an obedience trial. But instead, she got impatient and used a harsh method just to stop the dog from SHOWING that it's not happy with the situation. It surely hasn't made the dog feel better about people approaching. Heck no - if anything, the dog is even more trepidacious. But now it just isn't showing it.
I've shown a lot of dogs over the years. Never have I put a dog into the ring that I thought would possibly hurt a person or even another dog. That's MY responsibility as a caring person. I've also been a judge - 4-H and matches at this point, but I have been asked several times to be an ASCA judge. As a judge, I expect people to have safe dogs in the ring. So it really bothers me to see someone who is so frantic to get a title on a dog that they are willing to use a method that is not good for the dog and that could very possibly be creating a huge danger for a judge.
Any good trainer knows that what you see on the surface isn't necessarily what's happening underneath. And any trainer worth a d*mn NEVER tries to put a band-aid on a potentially dangerous behavior. That's exactly what I'm seeing here, and it sickens me.
Yes, I'm blunt and yes, it may sound cruel. But she's crowing about how shocking her dog "worked" instantly to stop her dog's aggression, and that's just complete nonsense. I've been training too long to believe that for a minute. You don't change an attitude or habit that quickly, but you CAN change the appearance of it. That's all she's done, and her trainer is too ignorant to even realize it.
Melanie and the gang

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She used the e-collar. It's done. I don't see the need to bash her for this as you cannot turn back time and undo it.
Yes, she's teaching the dog not to show this behavior. But it's also giving her more opprotunities to praise and reward for GOOD behavior. Provided the ecollar is paired with plenty of positives, at least ten rewards for every correction, then yes it can work and no it will not always produce a dog that will attack without warning. Is there a chance that could happen? Of course. But it doesn't ALWAYS happen. Some dogs do learn from the shock that aggression is not acceptable and also learn from the increase in rewards what IS acceptable. That alone can decrease stress as it's made very clear what the handler expects.
I'm not saying using the ecollar is what everyone should do with an aggressive dog. Of course not. But it's been done. The best we can do now is offer suggestions on moving forward and continueing to make progrees. Telling her she's selfish and stupid for using it is not going to help make your point.

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it's not the actual use of the ecollar that i've found so disturbing through the last thread. it's the lack of understanding being shown by her and by her trainer and the endless excuses being made. i don't think this dog is a ticking timebomb simply because they decided to use an ecollar on her; i think she's a danger because her handler has so many illusions. *that* is what i find truly frightening. and extremely sad. because the dog is not benefiting from any of this.

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I don't want to spoil your enthusiasm. That is not my intent. I am just concerned. So, what I have to say may sound adamant, but it is because it concerns me, not because I want to attack you. So, here's my opinion since you posted.

I don't know why you are so amazed that she isn't curling her lips or snarling anymore. You've supressed that successfully by punishing her with an aversive which she associated with not only the trainer, but whatever else she was doing, ie: growling. You admitted that yourself when you said she growled and you immediately zapped her. That is punishing the growl. What counter conditioning was done? None. You tackled this without taking baby steps. You tried for the entire behavior all at once. And when she objected, she got zapped. Not amazingy, that behavior stopped, was supressed, as predicted by many of us.

So, what tells you that she is comfortable with the SFE with the trainer? The licking of the lips and yawning? Those are well known calming signals used by dogs to communicate. She got punished for growling so the growling stopped and now she's going to try something else to tell you that she's uncomfortable as he!! (IMO) and is trying to tell the person that she would like to avoid conflict but to please back off. Soon, she is going to run out of communication options if the calming signals don't work and she may well bite. She was never desensatized to this gradually, from a distance, marking baby steps. She was plunged into being forced to tolerate it. There's a huge difference.

She has not been made stable by this quick fix and in fact is very most likely unpredictable at best.... and if you take her in front of a judge whom she doesn't even know in a stressful environment.....well, I wouldn't risk that for the hightest title or ribbons. She may not bite, but I'd never be able to be confident or comfortable that she won't. I feel sorry for the unsuspecting person who may well get his/her face ripped off. And I feel sorry for your dog. It is just not necessary to win titles with this dog if it means making her that uncomfortable. What's the point? She was obviously not conditioned as a young puppy to have these things come naturally to her or to be comfortable. If someone has to put their dog and themselves through this much struggle, even if it weren't the e-collar, IMO that is ridiculous....just so the dog's owner can achieve some kind of self aggrandizement. But I'm glad you're happy with what you see as progress.

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I agree with Melanie, Elegy and Carrie 110%
Your dog didn't lipcurl *while WEARING a collar that zapped her for doing it in the previous training session* this is not at all surprising - the dog is not stupid -she has learned how to avoid getting shocked -that doesn't make it a victory or a worthy tool.
You are not further ahead, you are further behind.
Do a little research about e collars -the behaviors happen with them ON and with them OFF are often totally different- dogs are VERY aware when they are wearing something that emits shocks.
You are still not making this a pleasant experience for the dog and teaching her that SFE is fun because you are not working at a level BELOW THRESHOLD-- she is still licking and obviously saying "I'm stressed by this/ I don't like this. / I'm uncomfortable with this"
You need to be training at a level that Roxy IS comfortable and building from there- not going past where she is comfortable. If you want to truly change how she feels about SFE and make real progress. You need to break down the SFE into tiny pieces and work on those and all sorts of other things to get her comfortable with touch and with people beofre working on SFE with her in a stay and someone approaching.
The hallmark of a novice trainer/poor trainer is being too pushy and using a quick fix as Melanie explained.
Remember, the dog will be much more uncomfortable in the ring with a judge she doesn't know and with all the stress that comes with being at a trial and she will not be wearing her e-collar. Many dogs who love all people, including strangers and have no trouble with HA or touch freak out about the judge in a trial setting. My aussie ran at and muzzle punched the judge in a rally trial for following behind us with a clipboard and she LOVES everybody and has no issues what so ever. She was high-in-trial with two perfect scores in her previous trial. She was nervous and hadn't slept well and just wasn't herself. My border collie had to be excused from the ring in his first trial because he got so nervous, again it was of the judge following behind, us that he completely lost his ability to focus and work-- his next time in he scored a perfect 210. He loves EVERYBODY but got scared and behaved in a way I couldn't have predicted at a trial.
I hope you will back WAY up and do the work that it takes to REALLY deal with this problem not to mask it. Isn't your dog worth it ? Isn't your relationship with your dog worth it ? Isn't the safety of other poeple worth it?
Could you at least read some good books because it is obvious from your posts that you just really don't get it and it seems that nothing anyone says here makes any difference.There were many good ones suggested in your previous post. Your dog is worth the $20.
Please keep in mind that we are not trying to hold the two of you back from your goals. We are trying to stop you from falling for the trappings of taking dangerous, counter productive short cuts in training that masquerade as little victories to someone who doesn't understand what's going on. We all have Roxy's best interest at heart.

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Melanie, if I read her post correctly, she tried something different today . . . No e-collar.
Not NO e-collar. No shocks delivered. BIG difference-- esp to the one wearing the shock collar.

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Im not going to steal your happiness. Im glad Roxy is improving!
Congratulations!

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I'm really impressed by all the people that have never seen the dog, never seen the dog react, never been apart of the training, have never seen the punishment, the timing, the dog's reaction, etc, can know exactly what the dog was taught, what the dog learned, and what the dog associates with what. Absolutely amazing. You guys should all have a huge pat on the back, atta boy!!

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It's all been described whatszmatter. It's been described in enough detail. The dog threatens with a lip curl or snarl. Duh....does it take a rocket scientist to see that something is bothering the dog? Then the e-collar goes on and she gets zapped for her discomfort, fear or objection. Anyone who has even a rudimentary knoweledge of behavior can see that punishing fear, discomfort or objection is not creating a comfortable and acceptable situation for a dog who doesn't understand what it is the humans in the picture are after. The dog doesn't have insight about standing nicely for a judge in a show down the road, doesn't know why she has to be forced to tolerate something she was never conditioned or socialized to as a young puppy in order for it to become 2nd nature to her. All this talk about letting the dog buck up and deal with it is all anthropomorphizing....all projecting human ideals onto a dog. There are ways to make a situation like this at least have a chance. Those ways were discussed here by trainers and people who have studied canine behavior and the science of how domestic dogs operate. The advice was turned down in lieu of a quick fix, instant gratification. That is not the way to train a dog and certainly not the way to counter condition a dog with this severe of an aggression issue.
No, no one was there. But there are systematic, accepted norms to impliment when treating aggression and this is 180 degrees away from any norms or even variations on the theme... set by science, by behaviorists. This is a very risky situation. There is nothing stable about it. There is no foundation, just a few flimsy walls and a leaky roof.

Absolutely amazing. You guys should all have a huge pat on the back, atta boy!!
I don't know where you come from but if you ask any PhD in the science of animal behavior, I can guarantee that they would dismiss this method which was used as careless, dangerous and severely lacking in creating stability for the dog.

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And btw...it would be nice to be able to sugar coat it and make Roxy feel good. I'd love to be able to do that because I like Roxy. But I would be insincere if I did that, untruthful. I do hope that nothing happens and that the dog can be given the time to gradually get accustomed to this...a technique that was described....to back up and go through the process the way it should have been done in the first place. I truly hope that the dog can be shown that people can be trusted to work with her and not against her as she may well be perceiving it. I still wouldn't take her in the ring even then. But at least she might come to be safer and the situations which bother her might be shown to her to be safe and not objectionable.

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yeah, i've got it, you read some stuff by phd's so do I, except I don't exclude the half I don't like. Have you read anything by anyone other than someone associated with the APDT??
You have the scenerio in your mind how it all went down. No doubt the dog was uncomfortable, and she spent a year I think she said doing it another way, what is she supposed to spend 4 more?? You have no idea if the dog associated the correction with breaking a watch command or what. ANd your description of getting "ZAPPED" when being approached by someone else, shows how much detail you conform to fit your own mental image of what's happening. The dog wasn't zapped, it was at a level 1, . A very very very far cry from a shock. Almost all remote collars on a level one I've seen aren't even perceptible to half the people that have it tried on themselves, so don't try and throw more human emotion into this than need be.

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Not NO e-collar. No shocks delivered. BIG difference-- esp to the one wearing the shock collar.
Is the collar itself enough to make the dog stop? Undoubtedly dogs are smart, but a few shocks a week ago is enough to create the concrete understanding that the collar is the cause of the discomfort? I don't know why it was put on, honestly I don't care if it was on if it was not used. My dog wouldn't know the difference between an ecollar and a regular collar, even if he was shocked in the past. Maybe he's dumb. :rolleyes:

Anyway, I do agree that using the e-collar was a bad way to go, but to me, this week it actually sounds like they improved Roxy's behavior with positive training. She's still showing calming signals, but going from a lip curl to licking her nose and yawning is progress. Licking and yawning are indeed signs of stress, but not as severe as snarling. It's possible that she's fallen back on these as an alternative to snarling. It's also possible that this week's training session helped her, and she's slightly more comfortable and no longer feels the need to snarl.

I wouldn't have done this the same way, personally. It sounds like desensitizing but it isn't, because it's still heaping a lot of stress on the dog all at once instead of building up the contact gradually. This didn't reduce the stress for Roxy, now she views the SFE as a "oh crap, time to grin and bear it" exercise instead of a "oh crap, time to snarl and intimidate the trainer away" exercise. She's still defensive going into it. Had you kept the trainer at a distance with little to no physical contact with Roxy on the first session, and clearly marked the behavior Roxy needed to show in order to get the trainer to GO AWAY (you shouldn't have her feeding the dog yet, especially not while she's so uncomfortable. Why reinforce that state of mind?) I think she'd already be showing more comfort with the SFE.

If she did in fact stop snarling for fear of correction, she will undoubtedly start snarling again. She hasn't been corrected enough to eliminate the behavior that she's been reinforced for, her entire life. I'm curious to see how your next session goes, Cadence, if you don't use the ecollar.

I really do wish both of you the best of luck, with whatever method you choose.

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Whatszmatter:
yeah, i've got it, you read some stuff by phd's so do I, except I don't exclude the half I don't like. Have you read anything by anyone other than someone associated with the APDT??
You have the scenerio in your mind how it all went down. No doubt the dog was uncomfortable, and she spent a year I think she said doing it another way, what is she supposed to spend 4 more?? You have no idea if the dog associated the correction with breaking a watch command or what. ANd your description of getting "ZAPPED" when being approached by someone else, shows how much detail you conform to fit your own mental image of what's happening. The dog wasn't zapped, it was at a level 1, . A very very very far cry from a shock. Almost all remote collars on a level one I've seen aren't even perceptible to half the people that have it tried on themselves, so don't try and throw more human emotion into this than need be.
Is the level one on an e-collar a reward? Does the dog like it? What is it suppose to do if it is not a reward and not a punishment? All behavior is contingent on a consequence. A neutral consequence, neither a good thing or a bad thing will not affect the probability of a behavior repeating. So, what is this level one on the e-collar if it is not something for the dog to avoid? Are you saying that it is a reward?
No doubt the dog was uncomfortable, and she spent a year I think she said doing it another way, what is she supposed to spend 4 more??
The "other way" obviously wasn't the right way. The right way wasn't used. In fact, she explained how she did not go about it in the way that was described in a couple of posts....I think RD's an Melanies...(I forget who posted a viable method) A lot of people claim that they've used positive methods and then come to find out after they describe what they've done, it's all a** backwards with big holes in it.
Have you read anything by anyone other than someone associated with the APDT??

Yes, I have a background in the science of animal behavior which includes a little bit more than reading something by someone associated with the APDT. And I have a wee bit more than a rudimentary understanding from a nearly half century of experience with canine behavior.:D And of course, I'm driven to expand my learning as I hope everyone with dogs does.

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Is the collar itself enough to make the dog stop? Undoubtedly dogs are smart, but a few shocks a week ago is enough to create the concrete understanding that the collar is the cause of the discomfort? I don't know why it was put on, honestly I don't care if it was on if it was not used. My dog wouldn't know the difference between an ecollar and a regular collar, even if he was shocked in the past. Maybe he's dumb
Most deffinately a dog is able to tell! Especially when it has an experience as memorable as recieving a shock! The shock collar feels different and smells different.

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Do any of you mind if I ask a pro trainer who knows about e-collars come here and see what he thinks?

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I don't mind . . . I don't know much about e-collars, admittedly. I just don't like the idea of a remote correction device. Definitely willing to be open-minded and learn about it, tho.

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Momof7, can I just say...I love your signiture. It made laugh and I needed that today. :D

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I don't mind . . . I don't know much about e-collars, admittedly. I just don't like the idea of a remote correction device. Definitely willing to be open-minded and learn about it, tho.
This is what I am doing. I am asking the trainers on a gun dog forum I go to to help me. I posted the two threads about Roxy and asked thier opinion.
I dont know if they will come here and answer cause I didnt ask them to but I will post thier opinions.

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Momof7, can I just say...I love your signiture. It made laugh and I needed that today. :D
I needed it too! I love this quote!

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You have no idea if the dog associated the correction with breaking a watch command or what.
Neither do you.
Neither does Roxy's owner nor trainer.
Oooh, I do believe we've discovered the point!
Anyway, back to the OP! I hope things continue to go positive for you and that you really can work through this. I also hope you never ever have a bad experience from any of this. I want to be happy for you, but in the back of my mind, I know I'd always be terrified of the dog biting an examiner without warning.
I'm so torn for you, so I just wish you best.

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Is the level one on an e-collar a reward? Does the dog like it?
In this case no, but you bet it could be in another one. It would just be the mark for the correct behavior. A level one is so low that it be used to mark a correct behavior just as it could be used to say, hey, pay attention. BUt that's a different arguement. Dog training is all about communication, and it is a two way street. and yes its avoiding the punishment, and it works.
The "other way" obviously wasn't the right way. The right way wasn't used. In fact, she explained how she did not go about it in the way that was described in a couple of posts....I think RD's an Melanies...(I forget who posted a viable method) A lot of people claim that they've used positive methods and then come to find out after they describe what they've done, it's all a** backwards with big holes in it.
The same could be said for a lot of people that mess up their dogs using any type of training philosophy.

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This is what I am doing. I am asking the trainers on a gun dog forum I go to to help me. I posted the two threads about Roxy and asked thier opinion.
I dont know if they will come here and answer cause I didnt ask them to but I will post thier opinions.
Well, unfortunately many gun-dog/hunting dog trainers depend highly on the e-collar for control - and with breeds that WANT to work with their owners, which is really sad.
I've seen excellent hunting dogs trained without the use of shock, but it takes an exemplary trainer to do that. Most don't bother - they want the easy way out, the quick fix and they go right to the e-collar to get it. Using shock is COMMON in training for hunting and field work, but it surely doesn't make it RIGHT.
But of course, they will defend to the death their right to use it. Unfortunately it's often used just to earn titles ... as poor a reason as any.
We're also not talking about training a dog that isn't being touched by a stranger. I don't believe there's any part of a gun-dog training that requires the dog to hold a stand-stay while the owner is six feet away, and a stranger comes up and touches the dog. That's the situation we're talking about here. Using shock to stop aggressive behavior in a dog who is uncomfortable in that situation is a HUGE mistake.
Is there anyone on that gun-dog forum who is a good enough trainer to do the training without shock? THAT'S the person who would impress me. And can they teach the retrieve without forcing it with an ear pinch or a toe pinch? I have seen first-hand what happens in training many of those hunting dogs. It crosses the path of abuse at times.
Melanie and the gang in Alaska

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A level one is so low that it be used to mark a correct behavior just as it could be used to say, hey, pay attention. BUt that's a different arguement. Dog training is all about communication, and it is a two way street. and yes its avoiding the punishment, and it works.
You accuse others of making assumptions and knowing what's going on without being there, but you are now doing the same exact thing. You're assuming to know what a dog felt at "level one" and making it sound like it's so low that the dog isn't getting much correction from it. But that depends entirely on the dog.
I have seen shock collar work where a level of 25 (from zero - 100) is a mere ear twitch on one dog, but a level of eight with the same collar makes another dog yelp. At eight, I could barely even feel it, but obviously it was quite a correction to the dog. Use of shock in training is something to never be taken lightly, and should never be used just to keep a dog from showing signs of insecurity or aggression. It's a poor trainer who does that.
As always, we have to base our opinions on the information given, and that's exactly what I've done with Roxy's situation. I've read what she's written to us and under no circumstances do I want others to think that what she's done is a GOOD thing. How many unsuspecting dog owners out there would read her glowing post on how it worked wonders, and then run out and buy their own shock collars so they could shock their own dogs into submission? Do you really, honestly think that what she did was a GOOD thing? Do you really, honestly think that teaching her dog to not show its lip has now cured the dog of all unhappy or stressful feelings about the stand for exam?
Surely you are a better trainer than that. I suspect you are just arguing because you don't like the people who promote positive training - at least that's been your track record to date.
Melanie and the gang in Alaska

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Sure, ask the gundog people to join in. The more the merrier, but training gun dogs for distance work with an e-collar is of course a VERY different thing than using it to deal with a dog who snarls or lipcurls with a trainer approaching for SFE. I don't think aggression towards humans is probably a very common occurence with gun dogs.
Wouldn't it be smarter to talk to some trainers who specialise in aggression and ask them how they feel about using an e-collar?

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I suspect you are just arguing because you don't like the people who promote positive training - at least that's been your track record to date.
Yup....Track record all rght.
I have known lots of people who hunted with their dogs. My Dad, now 88 yrs. old, an avid hunter back in "the day" when I was a teen, use to have a friend with a Chocolate Lab who he trained beautifully himself. That dog was a push button dog and he never had to use a shock collar. He had another friend with a Brittany. Same thing. Beautifully trained without a shock collar...very reliable. I remember my Dad just raving about these dogs out in the field when he went hunting for birds. I remember getting to watch them go through their paces in their yards when I visited. I don't think that would have ever occured to either of these men to use a shock collar. They used very gentle methods to train them. These dogs were couch potatoes and spoiled rotten when at home when I was at their houses. They absolutely adored their dogs. LOL. My Dad also talked about hunting with dogs when he was a young man. He described the dogs and how superbly they were trained. They didn't even have electric collars then I don't think. So, I don't know.....what did they do before shock collars were invented? I know there were fabulously trained hunting dogs though.
I wouldn't guage what these modern day hunters who depend on electric shock to train their dogs say to compare to this serious dog-human aggression situation. Training people friendly gun dogs is not applicable IMO to what we have here, a serious behavior problem.
Sam....we posted at the same time. Gee, great minds think alike. :)

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You accuse others of making assumptions and knowing what's going on without being there, but you are now doing the same exact thing. You're assuming to know what a dog felt at "level one" and making it sound like it's so low that the dog isn't getting much correction from it. But that depends entirely on the dog.
Yeah I guess I assumed it wasn't much cause the dog didn't really have much of a reaction.
I think she did the best thing they could do. I"m not going to say they were correcting away her dog's warning signs or if the dog understood that it was for breaking a watch command. Sure it could have meant either to the dog. BUT the dog has responded. SOme may say its just more dangerous, but i've seen more than a few dogs (that I've had zero relationship or connection with) go off on people for who knows what reasons, sometimes with warning sometimes without. Using the E-collar IMO doesn't predispose her dog to being any more dangerous or less in that catagory.
I'm not saying I would necessarily do it that way, but i am not her trainer or her. Someone who goes out and uses something they have no idea about under certain circumstances isn't very bright imo, but that's not really in my control.
Surely you are a better trainer than that. I suspect you are just arguing because you don't like the people who promote positive training - at least that's been your track record to date.
No i'm arguing cause I think she's doing the best she can, I don't think all the doom and gloom stuff everyone is saying is any more possible now than it was before hand. I don't believe the just because an e-collar was used that everyone is now in danger and she should be doing things totally different.
If her dog is licking her lips showing some calming or stress signals, fine, the dog was stressed in the first place. BUt they have been able to make progress. Either the dog is licking cause it isn't as stressed as it was before, or maybe others are right and she just learned that snarling was not acceptable.
I have no problem with people promoting positive methods,why would I?? I do have a problem with half truths and nothing but negatives from some about the other half of dog training.

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Kris, I'd love to hear from people that use the e-collar for training purposes, I'm sure they get a positive outcome as well. Not every trainer that uses the e-collar burns their dog. Many get positive outcomes, and believe it or not the dog's spirit isn't broken.
Now, don't get me wrong, for all the positive method, trainers out there, I am in no way saying your wrong, or soft or whatever the term many I'm sure have labelled you.
I use purely positive methods with Hades. Period. I used leash corrections with him for the first few weeks of school and decided quickly that they were NOT required. He's just not that type of dog.
And for those who use the e-collar, I am in no way stating that they are cruel or inhumane.
There are many ways to get a dog to perform the skills you want them to do. Those are just two ways of doing it.
There are two roads to get to point B. Whichever road you take doesn't make it anymore right or wrong to me. They are two roads, that end up in the same place, maybe if your driving a 4X4 you can take the rocky trail, if your in a sports car the paved road is the way for you. *shrugs*
Elegy, I don't try to hide and disillusion myself about Roxy's issues. I admit to them, and find ways to work on them. That's different than saying they don't exist at all. I know they exist. I've ruled out some possible reason why, and feel comfortable on working with those issues with my trainer.
Admitting that they are there, but working to cease certain behaviours is different than not admitting they're there at all.
RD- Yes, many dogs become "collar smart", but with most dogs, it takes more than a one hour session of wearing it, and getting shocked ten times. Roxy wore the collar the WHOLE lesson, and didn't get shocked the whole time. Same with yesterday. She wore it, but did not get shocked at all. Next lesson, I won't put it on her at all.
I think what many are forgetting is we've never been able to examine her before. Ever like we did yesterday. She got no corrections whatsoever. No verbal, no shock. And she got rewarded quite heavily.
Doberluv- I try to use your theory a little bit to explain to myself *why* she does this. Roxy is a "snooty" dog. She does enjoy attention, but when she wants to play and not be patted anymore, she is very demanding. If you continue to do what she doesn't want anymore, and not what she wants she'll show her teeth and make noises so you'll make eye contact to see how scary she is, so you'll do what she wants you to.
So, correct me if I'm wrong, it's your theory, but showing her teeth has worked all this time. For months and months. All those times we fed her food the whole time my trainer was touching her, she was fine, as soon as the food was gone out came the teeth. It's something that has worked for her up until now. My new idea, mixed with RD's technique, is: If you let my trainer touch you, which doesn't hurt you, after you get a whole *bunch* of treats, and pats from the both of us.
So this behaviour gets you more than the old one. Therefore, it's in my best interest to behave, and than I'll get a whole whack of treats and mommy says I'm a good girl.. If that makes any sense.
I do not plan on trialing her anytime soon. We've only got ONE real, perfect though mind you SFE in almost a year. A whole year. I am more than aware that we have plenty of work to do, than more proofing with other people, other than my trainer. I am not "disillusioning" myself to that fact.
Sam, you're right. I don't want this post to make others go out and buy an e-collar. At the same time, I think it's pretty clear, that this is not a "normal" situation. As well, having an e-collar is in no way a bad thing. E-collar's work quite well for a variety of "bad behaviours" as we like to label the term.
It's also been made clear on both this thread and the other, that this was a LAST RESORT. After around 9-10 months of working on it, using treats, we had gone nowhere, actually we'd probably taken a few steps back. Roxy was quick to take advantage of us, eating all the treats than showing her teeth as SOON as she realized there were none left.
Quest- I do not believe that after maybe 6 SFE without a lip curl, ROxy is totally uncomfortable. I don't know where I said that she was totally fine with the SFE now.
I know that she isn't, but IMO, and I know my dog quite well, she was 100% more comfortable with is yesterday than she has EVER been. We did it a few times, and the last one, it was quite clear that she wasn't as nervous or angry with the situation as she has been before.
It will take time to get her used to this, and plenty of praise when she does it right. That's the plan. To get as many good SFE's that I can REWARD HEAVILY to show her that that is the behaviour I want. Than reward some more.
I am more than aware and not going to trial her tomorrow. I know this. But as of yesterday, her attitude, which is what the problem is, has changed about the SFE.
She has never really gotten a huge reward for a SFE. A few times she did "OK" for ROxy and got some treats, but not near the amount she did yesterday. And it was almost like it was a totally different event for her. Like when we first trained for the retrieve. She was unsure when we were finished but was anxious for her reward. It was kind of the same thing yesterday. Am I doing it right? YES! WHooopeee! *jumps around* eats a bunch of treats.
As for the collar level, Kris knows what a Level 1 in this particular brand of collar is like, and I'm sure she could tell you it's barely perceptible. My trainer could not feel it at all, and wanted me to turn it up, she could barely feel a level 2. But the level of stimulation differs from dog to dog so it doesn't really matter as Quest stated.
Now to end this, I don't want to sound rude or blunt myself.
But none of you know Roxy. I did exhaust the positive method with her. Positive methods work great when training her to do something she likes. But she is clever, and if she's even a little uncomfortable, she will take advantage of that positive method. Roxy likes to be touched by people on her own terms, she demands when she wants to be touched, where and in what manner. With the SFE there is no choice.
And perhaps to begin she wasn't even that unhappy or that uncomfortable. But the behaviours that I've been working on, worked for her to begin with, and those behaviours grew and grew until it was clear that the methods chosen were not working. They were allowing these behaviours to get worse.
Have any of you heard the positive method for teaching a recall?
Well it was tried on Roxy for about a week. Until she figured it out. Mom calls me. When I get to her I get a treat. If I don't come when she calls, it's OK, when I do get there I'll get a treat. So, right now, the treat is my second priority, first I want to go over and sniff the mat the puppy pee'd on, THAN I'll go get a treat from mommy.
That's the method that does work on many dogs. But with Roxy, she quickly figured out, that this method, didn't demand that she come IMMEDIATELY. Just whenever she could make it by, and when she did, whenever that be, she would get a treat.
She has two lessons next week. As I said, I'm going to try to get a video. I'm sure than many of you, who already have your mind set won't change them, even if you see a dog that doesn't look *that* uncomfortable. But, than again, you never saw her SFE's when we were using the positive methods. I wonder what you all would've reccomended if you saw those.... Weeks upon weeks, hours upon hours of a positive method used, and her reaction... Either your answer would be, leave it be. It's not that important. Or spend another year on it.
RD- I can't remember because I"ve spent so long writing this post, but I seem to remember your post having to do with stress and nervousness.
As I said, yesterday my trainer said that she didn't want to stress the "watch me" as much. Too much at once, when she's already in a stressful situation. So she said, let her look at me, when I make one step towards her and stop. Say watch me ONCE. She'll glance at me, when she realizes I'm not coming any closer and she looks back at you, reward.
So with the changed method, there's not as much stress on watch me watch me watch me. But rather while we get her used to it, watch me, but if you notice her moving and you want to see where she's going, glance over and check it out. When you feel comfortable again, look back to me. If that makes any sense.
The first time, the whole time, I was stressing watch me watch me watch me. And my trainer believes it was undue stress. Watch mom, mom wants me to watch her, but I want to look over sooo bad at her... aahh! Now it's a little more relaxed so she can get comfortable.
As well yesterday, there were no sweaty pawprints on the floor when she was released.
It's clear, and I already knew that most would not agree. Doberluv, thanks for your honesty, I'd rather you tell me the truth as you did than sugar coat it ;)
But that goes for when you see the video as well. No vice versa just because you've stated your opinions so bluntly. I don't want people to sugar coat it, but I don't want you to be so stuck in your own heads that what I've done is wrong, that you wont' ADMIT, that Roxy doesn't look uncomfortable as he!!.

Answer:
The way you describe "positive" methods and how you've used them shows me that you are missing the gist. There is more to the science of learning than handing out a bunch of treats. This is science. It is proven to work on even dogs in worse shape than Roxy. I'm sorry to say but what you've tried does not describe what I know about "positive" methods. (I don't like that non-technical adjective/cliche)
Anyhow, I do wish you the best and hope Roxy gets comfortable with this. It sounds like she must have had some problems from early puppy hood as far as having her demands reacted to so that she developed this way where she learned that it works to act that way. I don't know. But I think I've run my course with this thead. I do hope everything turns out well for you and your dog. Maybe she'll get use to all this pressure in time. Hopefully, she's young and has a few more years to give to you so you can get that title.
Me, I'm just glad to have my dogs in my life. I don't care too much about what they prove or achieve other than being the loyal, lovely pals they are. Anything else is just gravy.