Shock collars

Question:
 Hey guys, I was talking with a co-worker the other day about my doggies and he mentioned using a shock collar in training. He said they really work wonders.
My questions are: will this injure my dog? Are these relatively safe to use?
Thanks!!

Answer:
This is a must read article. I am totally against their use for so many reasons but this article will best describe why they are seldom used anymore, certainly not be currently educated and experienced trainers/behaviorists.

What behavior are you trying to address, maybe I can help you in a more humane and effective way.
www.advocatesforanimals.org.uk/pdf/electricshockcollars.pdf

Answer:
I am one of the few here that use Shock or E-Collars.
To answer your questions.
Yes they are safe to use if you know how to use it properly
Yes they can injure or burn your dog if you do not use it properly.
I highly suggest finding a pro trainer who can show you how to use it step by step. The reason I suggest a pro is that not all dogs are created equal.
Here is a good over view
http://www.finographics.com/schutzhund/obedience/ecollarwork.html#FITTING%20THE%20COLLAR%20TO%20THE %20DOG
Or this will help
Mike Lardy's Total E-collar Conditioning Video
Some will argue that is cruel or inhumane. Some of those who say that use a prong collar on thier dogs and claim thats not cruel too.
A e-collar is a training tool like any other training tool.
Dr2little, I totally respect you and everyone who opposes e-collars opinions.
I have been on your side at one time but since learned and seen first hand how well this tool helps with the progress of training.
To each thier own;)

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Funny story....Man spent two thousand dollars on a Weim for hunting. Went with my hubby's dad for his first field trial, dog moved forward when in a stay position, shock was issued, dog took off and never came back!
Tony's dad owns the National champion field dog, she was trained using an e-collar, best dog in the business.
It really depends on the dog and the degree of training it has already had and the issues you are using the collar for before you can make an informed choice on whether or not to use an e-collar. Most house dogs/pets, (non-working dogs) don't need an e-collar, just good consistent training.

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Seeing this topic in the puppy forum is scary! I support responsible use of shock/electric collars when the need arises (I've had to use one only once in nine years).
It looks like the others posted some excellent links for you. You aren't planning to use an e-collar on a puppy though, are you? What problem are you having? Or is this just a general question?

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Seeing this topic in the puppy forum is scary! I support responsible use of shock/electric collars when the need arises (I've had to use one only once in nine years).
It looks like the others posted some excellent links for you. You aren't planning to use an e-collar on a puppy though, are you? What problem are you having? Or is this just a general question?
Just noticed its in the puppy section!!
Never use a e-collar on a pup less then 5-6 mo. Honestly I would never use one on a pet unless there were severe issues that could not be corrected with positive re-inforcement, or a plain ole big NOOOO!!
I use them with my dogs because of the level of competition and hunting we do. We need complete controll over our dogs for many reasons. The most important being that they need to not get in the way of the gun. I have heard horror stories about dogs who get shot in the field.
What kind of puppy or dog do you have?

Answer:
Funny story....Man spent two thousand dollars on a Weim for hunting. Went with my hubby's dad for his first field trial, dog moved forward when in a stay position, shock was issued, dog took off and never came back!
Tony's dad owns the National champion field dog, she was trained using an e-collar, best dog in the business.
It really depends on the dog and the degree of training it has already had and the issues you are using the collar for before you can make an informed choice on whether or not to use an e-collar. Most house dogs/pets, (non-working dogs) don't need an e-collar, just good consistent training.
Your exactly right! No dog is created equall. You need to be able to read your dog very well when using a collar. Its a skill that is learned by experience.
What kind of dog does Tonys dad own?

Answer:
http://www.finographics.com/schutzhund/obedience/ecollarwork.html#FITTING%20THE%20COLLAR%20TO%20THE %20DOG
No offense but this link that you posted actually teaches how to use a shock collar on puppies. I have to say, dealing with the after effects of shock collar use, it's just not worth the risk. Some dogs may appear to be bomb proof but you just don't run into the same negative consequences using positive training. These have been around a long, long time and there's a reason so many trainers/behaviorists are not only not using them anymore but speaking out and trying to have them banned.
I know I have a better article but with my computer crash I lost so many links. I'll try to dig it up.
http://www.africanconservation.org/dcforum/DCForumID12/56.html

Answer:
Shock collars are like the Ferraris of training equipment. They require plenty of skill to be used properly.
They are not torture devices, and can be perfectly humane. The effect it has on the dog is totally up to the person holding the remote. When used properly, they can work extremly well. When used incorrectly they can cause severe damage not only physically, but to the relationship you have with your dog as well.
They have their uses, but they are not my first choice for obedience training, and certainly never on puppies.
I hope that you'll seek out other ways of training your pup.

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No offense but this link that you posted actually teaches how to use a shock collar on puppies. I have to say, dealing with the after effects of shock collar use, it's just not worth the risk. Some dogs may appear to be bomb proof but you just don't run into the same negative consequences using positive training. These have been around a long, long time and there's a reason so many trainers/behaviorists are not only not using them anymore but speaking out and trying to have them banned.
I know I have a better article but with my computer crash I lost so many links. I'll try to dig it up.
http://www.africanconservation.org/dcforum/DCForumID12/56.html
If you read my other posts you will see how I dont agree with using it on young pups. The norm for labs in intensive training is between 6-9 mo. Sometimes earlier if the pup has matured fast enough. Again not all dogs are created equally. I certainly believe in let a pup be a pup as long as it needs to be. One of my dogs we didnt use a e-collar on till 9 mo old. He matured a little slower than some labs do, probably because I spoiled the heck out of him:D
Anyways to each thier own. Its not for everyone!

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I'll stay out of this !!!! Especially in the Puppy Forum !!!

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I have used a shock collar before....... but would never use one on a pup or dog that has not already learned a command behaviour. It is not for teaching..it is for reinforcing already LEARNED behaviour.
I personally would never consider a shock collar for dogs under a year.
And it is very easy to ruin a dog with one......
Dr2little,
Since I am always open to "new ways", how exactly would you correct a bird dog that decides to chase a "farm animal" from up to 100 yards away? Or what would you do to prevent the incident from happening in the first place.?
My dogs will reliably come when called.... but up until we used the shock collar.....when tempted with a farm animal our "call" was ignored. This was approx two years ago, when we had this problem. We haven't used the shock collar for about a year..... but we still have no problems with chasing livestock. What in your opinion could we have done with positive reinforcement to remedy the situation, that is as reliable as our dogs are now?
I am really not being sarcastic or rude..... just wondering what other options are available in your opinion.
I would also like to say........ Most situations the average dog owner has does not justify a shock to train the dog..... It requires training..... and shocking is the last thing I would reccomend to someone I have never met.

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If you read my other posts you will see how I dont agree with using it on young pups. The norm for labs in intensive training is between 6-9 mo. Sometimes earlier if the pup has matured fast enough. Again not all dogs are created equally. I certainly believe in let a pup be a pup as long as it needs to be. One of my dogs we didnt use a e-collar on till 9 mo old. He matured a little slower than some labs do, probably because I spoiled the heck out of him:D
Anyways to each thier own. Its not for everyone!
Yes, I did see that YOU don't at all advocate shock collars for use with puppies, but the link did and gave a "how to".
I do realize that your circumstances are different from the norm with field work but as always, I have a hard time not clarifying when it comes to things like shock collars especially given the thread and the OP's obvious need for novice information. I honestly mean no offense at all...:)

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Dr2little,
Since I am always open to "new ways", how exactly would you correct a bird dog that decides to chase a "farm animal" from up to 100 yards away? Or what would you do to prevent the incident from happening in the first place.?
My dogs will reliably come when called.... but up until we used the shock collar.....when tempted with a farm animal our "call" was ignored. This was approx two years ago, when we had this problem. We haven't used the shock collar for about a year..... but we still have no problems with chasing livestock. What in your opinion could we have done with positive reinforcement to remedy the situation, that is as reliable as our dogs are now?
I am really not being sarcastic or rude..... just wondering what other options are available in your opinion.
I would also like to say........ Most situations the average dog owner has does not justify a shock to train the dog..... It requires training..... and shocking is the last thing I would reccomend to someone I have never met.
I don't think you're being sarcastic or rude at all..:)
I teach an Emergency Recall in every class and every private session. When puppies graduate from my 6 week session, they all perform an emergency recall with staged competing motivators. The only puppies who fail this recall are the one's who's owners didn't have the time to practice.;)

I still practice an emergency recall with each of my dogs at least once per week. No matter what the distraction, they spin on a dime and are to my front without pause and without ever using any form of punishment.
It's taught using an emergency recall ER (a word or series of words) to call the dog (when he/she's already coming to you) and then reinforced with a full 30 second feed (tiny treats delivered slowly and in very small pieces) while repeating the ER and praising profusely. My ER for Sophie is Duck-Duck-Goose. Its practiced 3 times a day for the first week, 1 time/day for the next week, and so on until you use it at least once/week to keep it proofed and working. It does work. I'll try to remember to post the "how to" handout that I've made for my clients to better show you how it works.
I get at least 1 call/week from clients with stories of how their ER saved their dog from certain demise...:yikes:

Answer:
Your exactly right! No dog is created equall. You need to be able to read your dog very well when using a collar. Its a skill that is learned by experience.
What kind of dog does Tonys dad own?
An English Springer Spaniel. She's an old girl now, just turned 15 but you should see her hunting chippies at the cabin!

Answer:
I don't think you're being sarcastic or rude at all..:)
I teach an Emergency Recall in every class and every private session. When puppies graduate from my 6 week session, they all perform an emergency recall with staged competing motivators. The only puppies who fail this recall are the one's who's owners didn't have the time to practice.

I still practice an emergency recall with each of my dogs at least once per week. No matter what the distraction, they spin on a dime and are to my front without pause and without ever using any form of punishment.
It's taught using an emergency recall ER (a word or series of words) to call the dog (when he/she's already coming to you) and then reinforced with a full 30 second feed (tiny treats delivered slowly and in very small pieces) while repeating the ER and praising profusely. My ER for Sophie is Duck-Duck-Goose. Its practiced 3 times a day for the first week, 1 time/day for the next week, and so on until you use it at least once/week to keep it proofed and working. It does work. I'll try to remember to post the "how to" handout that I've made for my clients to better show you how it works.
I get at least 1 call/week from clients with stories of how their ER saved their dog from certain demise...:yikes:
Thank you, I would enjoy reading the how to handout. Although my dogs are now reliable, I wouldn't mind an alternative for future bird dogs/any dogs we might have.:)
You never can learn enough. ;)
Edit: I have plenty of time to practice.... I guess that is part of the reason I am so proud of my dogs accomplishments. Because I spend so much time with them, and the kids of course. That I am proud of what my dogs are.....and it is all due to our willingness to train ourselves...and not trust any tom, dick, or harry.... to do it FOR us.

Answer:
I honestly mean no offense at all... None taken!:D
An English Springer Spaniel. She's an old girl now, just turned 15 but you should see her hunting chippies at the cabin!
Sweet! Nothing like watching a well trained dog in action!
I wanted to add that although during training my dogs wear a colllar I rarely need to actually use it. Lots of consistant training and thier willingness to learn has been a god send

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I'll try to remember to post the "how to" handout that I've made for my clients to better show you how it works.
Please do!

Answer:
Thank you all for your advice. I will do much more research before making a decision. My dogs are 10 months old and weigh 30 lbs -- the vet still refers to them as pups so that's why I opted the puppy forum for this topic.
The issues I'm having trouble with are running off to chase cars, animals etc. The dogs are pretty good on most everything else and have learned to obey commands like sit, outside, ball, fetch, etc. However, when a car or animal strays into their line of sight I might as well be talking to the wall when it comes to saying 'no' or 'come'.
Anyway, thanks again. You were all a big help.

Answer:
The issues I'm having trouble with are running off to chase cars, animals etc.
Have you taught the recall yet? That really is the first step toward solving this problem. Dogs can't come when called unless they're taught how and when.
Most dogs will never need an ecollar for a recall problem. There are some however that simply have such a high prey drive that all the basic training in the world will fall by the wayside when a car, squirrel or whatever else strikes their fancy.
If, after working with a trainer or getting into a class and really teaching the recall from top to bottom, you're STILL having problems, then maybe an ecolalr would be right for your situation, provided you can find an experienced trainer to guide you. Personally I'd rather use an ecollar on a dog than end up with a dead one because they ignored a recall command in favor of chaseing a car.
In the mean time. Please leash your dog to prevent him from practicing this behavior. And good luck! :)

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what kind of dogs do you have 30 pounds at 10 months seems a little on the light side granted im new to dogs but my husky puppy was thirty at her last vet appointment and she was only 16 weeks.

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I created a new thread for the Emergency Recall (dog training section) that I said I would post in this thread.:)
An ecollar for this dog would not be appropriate..no matter what the reason but especially for recall.

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Ok I have never even heard of shock collars or ecollars until recently (the only e-collars I know of are Elizabethian Collars that animals where like cones on their necks to keep them from licking or biting at wounds) but I was wondering how these shock collars relate to electric fences where to dog wear the collar on the neck that shocks them so they don't go out of the boundaries of the yard?
Sorry if they are entirely different things, but to someone who doesn't know like me, it sounds like the same thing. I am guessing the shock or ecollars give a lot larger dose of shock then the electric fence kind.

Answer:
AnimalLoverCatRescuer, Electric fencing gives an 'automated' shock. No owner required. The fence system times it perfectly.
An E-collar can only deliver a shock when the owner triggers it. That's why you need extremly good timing.

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Ok I have never even heard of shock collars or ecollars until recently (the only e-collars I know of are Elizabethian Collars that animals where like cones on their necks to keep them from licking or biting at wounds) but I was wondering how these shock collars relate to electric fences where to dog wear the collar on the neck that shocks them so they don't go out of the boundaries of the yard?
Sorry if they are entirely different things, but to someone who doesn't know like me, it sounds like the same thing. I am guessing the shock or ecollars give a lot larger dose of shock then the electric fence kind.
Both work on the same basis. The dog learns its boundaries and is in controll of the shock. same with using one for training. The dog knows to listen to commands and is in controll of the shock. Same-same.

Answer:
A few years ago my Step Father picked up an electric anti-bark collar to help teach his yellow lab to stop it's constant barking.
My Brother-In-Law decided to test it on himself. He puts the collar on and barks. He gets a shock and hollers out "[expletive deleted!]". He gets another shock.
I don't know if my Step Father's lab ever managed to quiet down, but my Brother-In-Law now knows to watch his language!

Answer:
A few years ago my Step Father picked up an electric anti-bark collar to help teach his yellow lab to stop it's constant barking.
My Brother-In-Law decided to test it on himself. He puts the collar on and barks. He gets a shock and hollers out "[expletive deleted!]". He gets another shock.
I don't know if my Step Father's lab ever managed to quiet down, but my Brother-In-Law now knows to watch his language!
Now that is cute. LOL Anyhow my personal feelings as to a shock collar is this. When I am upset and or acting out. Would I prefer someone to assist with the situation in a natural and well structured fashion. Or would I expect some one hit me with a brick.
Common sense would lead me to the first area brought forth. No one let it bet freind or fow. Human or animal should be subjected to such a cruel enity as the Shock Collar or a brick

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Both work on the same basis. The dog learns its boundaries and is in controll of the shock. same with using one for training. The dog knows to listen to commands and is in controll of the shock. Same-same.
We use the invisible fence for Teddy. it works wonders.
he got shocked twice since we started using it and hasn't been shocked since. he knows when he hears the sound it means he is too close and he knows his boundaries so we really don't even have to have the collar on him anymore.
it even works when he is chasing a bunny (his major problem) He would always take off after a rabbit when we went outside, he wouldn't go far, just into the next door yard but I didn't want him on others peoples property. he was fine other than when a rabbit took off. so we started using the invisible fence collar. the other day he took off after a rabbit and it ran through the bushes into the next yard, Teddy immediately backed off because he knew he was too close to the boundaries.
I have never used a shock collar for anything else though. So I can't really compare them.

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Just noticed its in the puppy section!!
Never use a e-collar on a pup less then 5-6 mo. Honestly I would never use one on a pet unless there were severe issues that could not be corrected with positive re-inforcement, or a plain ole big NOOOO!!
I use them with my dogs because of the level of competition and hunting we do. We need complete controll over our dogs for many reasons. The most important being that they need to not get in the way of the gun. I have heard horror stories about dogs who get shot in the field.
What kind of puppy or dog do you have?
YOU GO GIRL!!!!!!!!! I have a severe problem with the unnatural use of these so called training tools/ They are unnessary and uncalled for. I know what i would do if someone used one on me. So why would any one even consider using them on another living breathing thing. Just unfair and unatural.

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We already expect so much out of these animals. We've selectively manipulated their breeding to such a state that their genetic health is causing them great suffering and short life spans. We have pushed the limit with using dogs to our advantage already. Now, where do people get the idea that its moral and OK to use such aversives which cause discomfort, fear, confusion, startling and pain? Why is it OK to exert such control over another living being just because we can? If it takes this level of control to train a dog, I'd rather see an untrained dog. And the justification that it might save a dog's life doesn't measure up. Leashes, fences and humane training methods can save a life. What kind of life is it when a dog is subjected to such punishment? It has gotten to be the mentality that "I want this or that from my dog and I'll go to any lengths to get my way," be it stern, harsh, domineering training methods all the way to electric shock treatment. Atrocious.

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We already expect so much out of these animals. We've selectively manipulated their breeding to such a state that their genetic health is causing them great suffering and short life spans. We have pushed the limit with using dogs to our advantage already. Now, where do people get the idea that its moral and OK to use such aversives which cause discomfort, fear, confusion, startling and pain? Why is it OK to exert such control over another living being just because we can? If it takes this level of control to train a dog, I'd rather see an untrained dog. And the justification that it might save a dog's life doesn't measure up. Leashes, fences and humane training methods can save a life. What kind of life is it when a dog is subjected to such punishment? It has gotten to be the mentality that "I want this or that from my dog and I'll go to any lengths to get my way," be it stern, harsh, domineering training methods all the way to electric shock treatment. Atrocious.
Ok fair enough. Do you use a prong collar on your dogs?
I am not going to get my panties in a bind because of comments like this Atrocious. What may seem atrocious to you may not seem atrocious to someone else. Especially if its a life or death matter. A un trained dog out there running tests or hunting could mean a dead dog. I prefer a lil shock or stimulation rather than the other. JMO

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Do you use a prong collar on your dogs?
No.
A un trained dog out there running tests or hunting could mean a dead dog.
Well then, maybe that dog oughtn't be out there running tests or hunting until he's proofed thoroughly in a safe area. I know plenty of hunting dogs who are beautifully trained without electric shocks. My dogs are about as reliable as as they come... out there running and trained without electric shock. Good heavens...what did they do before there were electric shock collars? My own grandfather, father and his friends hunted with dogs who were explicitly trained, and never trained using aversives like that.
I am not going to get my panties in a bind because of comments like this
That has got to be a relief to you. :eek:
What may seem atrocious to you may not seem atrocious to someone else.
ROFLOL.
That's a profound statement. Isn't that just the way of the world? I have opinions about politics, religion and lots of other things too.:)

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I agree with MomOf7, that shock collars can be properly and humanely used and have their place. I don't think that anyone need to get all excited and slam a training method simply because they don't use it. I've seen this happen with choke and prong collar threads as well on other boards. As long as no one is abusing their dog, why does anyone feel the need to give them a hard time?

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We already expect so much out of these animals. We've selectively manipulated their breeding to such a state that their genetic health is causing them great suffering and short life spans. We have pushed the limit with using dogs to our advantage already. Now, where do people get the idea that its moral and OK to use such aversives which cause discomfort, fear, confusion, startling and pain? Why is it OK to exert such control over another living being just because we can? If it takes this level of control to train a dog, I'd rather see an untrained dog. And the justification that it might save a dog's life doesn't measure up. Leashes, fences and humane training methods can save a life. What kind of life is it when a dog is subjected to such punishment? It has gotten to be the mentality that "I want this or that from my dog and I'll go to any lengths to get my way," be it stern, harsh, domineering training methods all the way to electric shock treatment. Atrocious.
Exactly: I just had a simple conversation with a so called dog trainer handler that I was considering to hire for the facility. He Stated: I will not at any time take anyones crap let it be human and or K-9!" It will be my way or the highway!" If that situation must be forced then so be it it will be forced. I stated to him: now I will be a little loud; " EXCUSE ME SIR! 1) THIS IS MY FACILITY NOT YOURS! 2) YOU WILL NOT EVER ATTEMPT TO WORK ANY DOG AND OR INSTRUCT ANY STUDENT TO USE HARSH DEMANDING TEC'S. IT IS NOT ACCEPTABLE AND GET THIS WILL NOT HAPPEN NOW OR EVER!
Well buddy had to take his hat off to me. That is right! If in which you are not willing to learn the proper and ethical ways to raise and or train a dog let alone give the students the proper out .look and the respectable mannor as to be trained/ In my eye's you are not a trainer. You are a A$$$$ HOLE that needs to go WHERE? Right to get this HE Double Hockey stick with no return ticket.
This person has not ever trained a dog from the ground up. He does not even seeem to understand that there are levels in which you train. He has only handled fully trained K-9 Dogs. To avail more than likely all wrong too.
It takes a whole load of LOVE to want to become a trainer. But most of all it takes, Patience, kindness and education 1 0 1 to do it right

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I personally have ever used an e-collar, I do not recommend them to anyone but the most educated about behavior modification. Behaviorists have been using shock therapy for decades and under the most regimented and properly distributed manner great effects have been made. I don't mean shock therapy like zapping the brain, but shock therapy much like the use of an e-collar. A general rule of thumb, other procedures should be implemented but in the case of danger to the subject or to others, punishment in the means of shock have been proven to be effective in removing the adversive behavior and replacing it with the appropriate one.
By no means am I advocating FOR the use of the e-collar, and I am fully supportive of positive reinforcement, but I can understand the use of an e-collar under the most severe circumstances when all other methods have failed and there is an immediate (there is no time for positive reinforcement) need for saftey to have a more acceptable behavior.

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I personally have ever used an e-collar, I do not recommend them to anyone but the most educated about behavior modification. Behaviorists have been using shock therapy for decades and under the most regimented and properly distributed manner great effects have been made. I don't mean shock therapy like zapping the brain, but shock therapy much like the use of an e-collar. A general rule of thumb, other procedures should be implemented but in the case of danger to the subject or to others, punishment in the means of shock have been proven to be effective in removing the adversive behavior and replacing it with the appropriate one.
By no means am I advocating FOR the use of the e-collar, and I am fully supportive of positive reinforcement, but I can understand the use of an e-collar under the most severe circumstances when all other methods have failed and there is an immediate (there is no time for positive reinforcement) need for saftey to have a more acceptable behavior.
The most educated in behavior modification are the very people who are trying to have the use of shock collars abolished.
I can guarantee it's not currently educated behaviorists out there using shock collars as the science does not support or warrent their use. Some dog trainers may still use them but even those are few and far between anymore.
The big problem is that these collars are most often used as a short cut to actual training. The behaviors that they are used to prevent are usually boundry related in which case actual training, for whatever reason, has not properly been proofed.
There are just so many other, more effective ways to achieve behavior reliability than to resort to shock collars....AGAIN, THIS IS A PUPPY FORUM!!!:mad: :mad: :mad:
(not directed at the person that I quoted or anyone specifically)

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I am not going to go nutso with all the comments, but.........
Yes people can go overboard with corrections from a shock collar....you can literally ruin a dog with one.........BUT... In my opinion there are certain situations that a shock collar can save your dogs life.
I have posted several times about livestock.......(at least in my state) if your dog even "worries" lifestock he/she can be shot and it be perfectly legal.....
I will not ever risk this! My dogs will not look at farm animals etc... No amount of treats will change their minds about this.........but a shock collar did.... I don't even have a shock collar anymore, but it is readily in their minds.....this behavior means an unwanted "correction".
I have no use for a hunting/retrieving dog that I constantly have to call off lifestock....... I want my hunting dogs to ignore them in the first place. My dogs don't even take a second glance.........
I also would not use a shock collar on a dog under 1 year old. My husband and I have trained a few bird dogs with great success. The only time we found it neccesary for a shock collar was with livestock.... They have NOT been forcefetched (FF). They have all been started as young pups....I have had no other problems teaching a retrieving bird dog to do it's job, other than with livestock. Needless to say, I am very proud of our dog's abilities and they have NO lasting effects of the seldom used shock collar.
Sometimes I just wish people would'nt overreact to certain things......
It is not the tool that is bad.......... People make it a bad thing.....

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Next time when you start with a pup, imprint it to the livestock you want it to not treat as prey. In other words, raise the pup with the livestock. Let him spend lots of time with the animals with your supervision from the minute you get your pup. This will make him bond with the livestock and not treat them as prey. How do you think sheep guardian dogs don't chase and bite the sheep they are guarding? Otherwise there should be a fence seperating the dogs from the livestock.
My perspective is that I'm not over-reacting. I find electric shock collars to be unnecessary as I've seen plenty of hunting dogs trained without them and trained beautifully. I grew up watching them. If a dog's life is in danger doing a certain activity because it doesn't have a reliable enough recall or stay and it cannot be managed humanely, then perhaps it should not be engaging in that activity. But we are all entitled to our opinions. Yes, I find putting electric current through an animal inhumane. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

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Next time when you start with a pup, imprint it to the livestock you want it to not treat as prey. In other words, raise the pup with the livestock. Let him spend lots of time with the animals with your supervision from the minute you get your pup. This will make him bond with the livestock and not treat them as prey. How do you think sheep guardian dogs don't chase and bite the sheep they are guarding? Otherwise there should be a fence seperating the dogs from the livestock.
My perspective is that I'm not over-reacting. I find electric shock collars to be unnecessary as I've seen plenty of hunting dogs trained without them and trained beautifully. I grew up watching them. If a dog's life is in danger doing a certain activity because it doesn't have a reliable enough recall or stay and it cannot be managed humanely, then perhaps it should not be engaging in that activity. But we are all entitled to our opinions. Yes, I find putting electric current through an animal inhumane. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.
Great come back: I so beleive in imprinting it is a wonderful tec. Now one thing I as well would state. Why is your dog running at large? Especially knowing that he/she can be injured?

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Next time when you start with a pup, imprint it to the livestock you want it to not treat as prey. In other words, raise the pup with the livestock. Let him spend lots of time with the animals with your supervision from the minute you get your pup. This will make him bond with the livestock and not treat them as prey. How do you think sheep guardian dogs don't chase and bite the sheep they are guarding? Otherwise there should be a fence seperating the dogs from the livestock.
My perspective is that I'm not over-reacting. I find electric shock collars to be unnecessary as I've seen plenty of hunting dogs trained without them and trained beautifully. I grew up watching them. If a dog's life is in danger doing a certain activity because it doesn't have a reliable enough recall or stay and it cannot be managed humanely, then perhaps it should not be engaging in that activity. But we are all entitled to our opinions. Yes, I find putting electric current through an animal inhumane. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.
My dogs do have reliable recall, and I can call them off livestock.... but that is not the problem...... I don't want them even to acknowledge them. They are doing a job usually when we come into contact with livestock. I do not want them to be sidetracked.... And my dogs have been around livestock since they were pups, they are not aggressive to them, but they did show an interest to check them out, I have not had this problem since they were about one year old. I am very proud of the training we gave our dogs. Not many hunters don't own a shock collar for their dogs, with ours it is not neccessary. Our shock collar broke about 2 years ago and we had NO need to replace it. My dogs have no negative lasting effects from the time we did use one. So in some instances I will always believe they are an effective training aid.
Great come back: I so beleive in imprinting it is a wonderful tec. Now one thing I as well would state. Why is your dog running at large? Especially knowing that he/she can be injured?
Lol, You have no clue about me at all. Maybe you should read up on me and my posts before you comment.
FYI... My dogs are not running at large. They are hunting. I don't think a dog could retrieve a goose, duck, dove, or anything else for that matter on a lead. They have to be very reliable with all the commands we give including hand commands....since they will be a great distance away from us. We have done this all without a shock collar. And like I said before, I don't want my dogs paying any attention to livestock etc. And the shock collar did exactly what I wanted it to do.
Maybe you should try to help someone that really abuses their dogs, instead of wasting your time on me.

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The most educated in behavior modification are the very people who are trying to have the use of shock collars abolished.
I can guarantee it's not currently educated behaviorists out there using shock collars as the science does not support or warrent their use.
There are just so many other, more effective ways to achieve behavior reliability than to resort to shock collars....AGAIN, THIS IS A PUPPY FORUM!!!:mad: :mad: :mad:
(not directed at the person that I quoted or anyone specifically)
THese are the statements I take offense too, maybe the people you read or listen to do are trying to get them abolished, yet there are thousands out there with beautiful working relationships with their animals that I can gaurantee would out perform these behaviorists dogs.
yeah this may be a puppy forum, I wouldn't use one on a puppy either, but not everyone gets a dog gets one as a puppy, not everyone has been imprinted, not every dog has come from the same back ground. As for efficiency and effectiveness again, those are your opinions. I guess you haven't seen the effectiveness or efficiency in training when someone uses one, and don't give me the working relationship is different, i'll put any dog that has had a e-collar on or "shock" that has trained with us, next to any other one that has never seen one, and you can't tell me they aren't efficient, or effective, or tell me their inhumane.
If a dog's life is in danger doing a certain activity because it doesn't have a reliable enough recall or stay and it cannot be managed humanely, then perhaps it should not be engaging in that activity.
So it would be more humane to leave a high drive lab in a kennel all day or just walks on a leash rather than putting an ecollar on it and training so it can go out and use its natural instinct safely?? I guess we have different definitions of humane.
Yes, I find putting electric current through an animal inhumane. ahh, human emotion again. Its a far far far cry from running electric current thru an animal, for sure. My God, we use higher levels and put them on people AND animals for much longer durations of time and call it THERAPY.

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[QUOTE=whatszmatter;467083]THese are the statements I take offense too, maybe the people you read or listen to do are trying to get them abolished, yet there are thousands out there with beautiful working relationships with their animals that I can gaurantee would out perform these behaviorists dogs.
I'm referring to the top professionals most often seen (for a reason) in the seminar circuit as well as the documented research done by the behavioral sciences community... why does that FACT offend you? Honestly, you show me one applied animal behaviorist who whould EVER put a shock collar on a dog in the name of "training".
yeah this may be a puppy forum, I wouldn't use one on a puppy either, but not everyone gets a dog gets one as a puppy, not everyone has been imprinted, not every dog has come from the same back ground. As for efficiency and effectiveness again, those are your opinions. Certainly not mine alone, read the link I posted earlier in this thread..I guess you haven't seen the effectiveness or efficiency in training when someone uses one, and don't give me the working relationship is different, i'll put any dog that has had a e-collar on or "shock" that has trained with us, next to any other one that has never seen one, and you can't tell me they aren't efficient, or effective, or tell me their inhumane.
I have a few questions for you. What would cause you to use a shock collar over more humane methods? Why is it that so many trainers/behaviorists find no need for them or have stopped using them. The shift away from shock collars is not "my opinion", it's happening.
So it would be more humane to leave a high drive lab in a kennel all day or just walks on a leash rather than putting an ecollar on it and training so it can go out and use its natural instinct safely?? I guess we have different definitions of humane.I guess we do, and different definitions of the word training as well. I will not say that I believe in something that there is no need for especially when it is not without the use of pain or fear. Please don't tell me that because I choose a perhaps slower method of achieving a desired behavior that it can't be done or is inhumane. It's these extreme points.."leave a lab in a kennel all day"..:confused: :mad: that make your arguments weak. I'm talking about training, not giving up...!!
I'm not standing alone, hence the reference to other professionals much more well know than myself, and I would NEVER use a shock collar to teach a behavior that can be learned without it.
ahh, human emotion again. Its a far far far cry from running electric current thru an animal, for sure. My God, we use higher levels and put them on people AND animals for much longer durations of time and call it THERAPY. A very common, yet not quite accurate argument. Again, read the unbiased research..or at least the article that I posted.
This is not an attack on you, I am quite justified in stating my case against something that I find inhumane and unnecessary...just like you are entitled to your opinion.

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Here's one of my first posts, you wanted unbiased opinion, research, etc. Here it is, i've had it since day one, its still there, its still dismissed and ignored by some. You want to claim behaviorists and educated, etc to back you up, find me someone more educated and unbiased than Stehpen Lindsay, all the people you quote and call experts, call him an expert as well, ALL OF THEM, still want to say I have no research, i have no education, i have no basis??? True these have nothing to do with e-collars, they have to do with correction, shocking the hell out of a dog is not correcting, but using it to communticate is, but back to the point, tell me the following words aren't true
Here's a quote from Stephen Lindsay, "properly understood, reward and punishment are morally neutral, the one being neither better nor worse thatn the other. Both outcomes serve equally vital functions in perfecting an animal's adaptation ot the social and physical environment. Lerning to respond and cope appropriately with the treats and trials of life is an important part of normal development for dogs... Although punishment is unpleasant, precisely what aspect makes it so beneficial and useful."
He also says about punishment, "not only is punishment often poorly misunderstood as a behavioral procedure, it is just as often bogged down in dire warnings of serious side effects and, more importantly, the false view that it does not work."
I like this one the best. " .... the pedulum has swung from a stubborn rliance on punishment and negative reinforcement to an equally unnatural extreme in which the use of punishment and negative reinforcement (in some quarters) is shunned to embrace a so-called "positive" approach to training and behavioral control. Extremem positions, whether based on good intention or not, are typically based on irrational beliefs and assumptions,- not scientific knowledge and experience. The adoption of an exclusive reliance on punishment or reward alone reflects a core of misunderstanding about how dog behavior is most effeciently modified."
I'd be willing to bet he's done more research than ALL us on this board combined. ANyone care to tell him he's telling lies, and that you alone have the FACTS?
Because people misunderstand or abuse punishment doesn't make "positive only" methods somehow superior to everything else. and for some of you on here to be spouting that mantra every chance you have, well, is about the same thing as 50 years ago when people told you that you had to force your dog to do everything.
because the writers of new books lace tons and tons of human emotion into the pages of the book to explain why they're "superior", does not make it new, advanced or superior in anyway.
I too am at a loss as to why more people don't see what they're doing.

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Ok, I'm really glad for all the response and education I've gotten from this post. I've learned quite a bit about shock collars. I've checked out your posts that were for and against it and even the links you guys posted - so tks :)
What strikes me in all this is the following: The shock collars aren't the problem here -- people are. When in the hands of someone sadistic this is definitely a torture device. When in the hands of a well intentioned trainer this could be a good tool. The same could be said of many everyday items.
What some seem to be forgetting is that this shock is not something the dog goes through every moment of its life. The shock itself is very brief. Just because the dog is wearing the collar doesn't mean it's receiving a shock. From all I read the dog is usually trained in a matter of days -- so let's say 10 shocks and it's trained. I received more spankings than that growing up and I'd say they hurt just as bad.
In any case, to each their own :) Thanks again for all the links and posts -- they were extremely helpful.

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There are so many good points on both sides I am undecided I have to admit... The hunters in the group got me thinking a little. LOL I obviously wouldn't and couldn't on my Cresteds and there naked necks. hmmm....great thread although yes...not one for the puppy forum I agree. ;)

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Personally, I couldn't care if someone uses a shock collar on their dogs, it is none of my business. I would not use on on mine.
Anyone who says it is humane, put one on and have someone shock the sh*t out of you with one. Especially from 100 feet away without you knowing it is coming. OUCH! Not nice.
But if you want to use one, go ahead. I will not be subjecting any of my animals to electric collars anytime soon.

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Anyone who says it is humane, put one on and have someone shock the sh*t out of you with one.
As I said, I've only had to use one once on a dog. And when we bought the collar, I tried it on my arm (on the lower settings). When it's needed, I can certainly see how it gets the job done!

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As I said, I've only had to use one once on a dog. And when we bought the collar, I tried it on my arm (on the lower settings). When it's needed, I can certainly see how it gets the job done!
I know a family that owned a gsd female. Now if you know anything about a high bred gsd they need to be worked. They either have a high prey drive and or defense drive. Well these people placed a shock collar on this particular dog. One of those underground ones. Anyhow they never ever put any time into the dog other than feeding the dog and bringing it in during the night.
Well as you know the dog may not be able to go any where due to the fact everytime the dog goes near the boundries she gets a shock. Well these two areas occured
1) Male dog entered the property and bred the female gsd now you have MUTTS. The shock collar kept her in but did not keep him out.
2) A young kid came into the yard and the dog ripped him to shreads. So again the shock collar kept her in but did nothing to stop her actions.
I truly believe if you love you dog you would do what he/she needs and requires. But if it means tramitizing a dog. Nope do not use it. This dog became so territorial and her aggression would become built up to the point of no return. As far as the pups are concerned yes they should have had the dog locked up and or spayed. But why should some people be responsible when 10 others are not. So who ever wants to use the creepy thing go nuts. I just know that it is truly truly cruel. And will not ever be used on my dogs. I think it is the LAZY MANS WAY OUT. If you truly loved your dog you would get it trained or take the classes to help you train it

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You're reffering to an invisible fence, not a shock (ecollar) collar.
The story you described sounds like a very unfortunate situation for the dog. But, it appears that it was due soley to the lack of care and training provided by the owners. The invsisble fence was not the problem, the owners who left their dog outside all the time unsupervised were the problem.
As far as the pups are concerned yes they should have had the dog locked up and or spayed. But why should some people be responsible when 10 others are not.
Say what? That's like saying don't bother to spay/neuter because you'll never make a difference, go ahead have all the pups ya want. OF COURSE they should have spayed their dog, and the male dog who mated with her should have been leashed and neutered. Unfortunetly it looks like neither owner bothered.
That looks like a case of people who are not responsible pet owners plain and simple. The invisible fence collar didn't tell those folks to leave their unspayed dog outside all day.