Aggression towards other dogs

Question:
 Our boy is having some aggression problems at doggie daycare. We have had him almost 2 months now (got him from a shelter). He is about 10 months old now - a hound/dalmation mix (Mostly hound). He currently weighs about 50 pounds. He is a neutered male. Was neutered 3 months ago.
When we first started taking him to daycare, the daycare owner indicated that he was showing some occasional mild aggression around his water dish and when toys are around. This does not happen all the time. Sometimes he plays with toys very nicely. Sometimes he is just fine around his water dish.
But there are times when he gets aggressive with other dogs about toys and his water dish. The daycare owner indicated it is not a fear based aggression. When he wants a toy, he wants it.
He will also at times play very rough with other dogs. He starts out playing nice, but then gets too aggressive. When the other dog lets him know he needs to stop it, he doesn't back down. He gets right back in their face.
When we are walking around the neighborhood, he has never once shown aggresion towards another dog that is on a walk, or dogs that are barking at us when we walk by them in their yards. When we walk by a barking dog, he rarely even barks back at them, maybe 1 out of 10 times he will bark back at the most.
He has never shown any aggression towards us (us or any other person). We can walk up to him with a toy in his mouth and tell him to leave it. He will drop it and we can pick it up and take it away without any problems. We can also walk over to him while he is eating and tell him to sit, and pick up his food dish and take his food away without any problem. The only aggression he has shown is towards other dogs. And he doesn't show this aggression all the time.
I asked the daycare owner what she is doing about this. She indicated that they will correct him if he is playing too aggressively. I am not sure how they do that - without actually being out there with the dogs. She indicated that they will tell him "NO" when he starts acting aggressively. She also said something that I found a little odd. She herself owns 3 dogs and she does not allow them into daycare because she said they are also aggressive towards other dogs. She said her 3 dogs play fine with each other, but they get too rough and aggressive when in daycare, just like our boy. I would think that someone that trains dog for a living would not have those issues with her dogs?
What can I do about this issue? Our boy has been given strike 1 for his aggressive behavior. 3 strikes and he is out of daycare. I am just not sure what they are doing to help shape and change his occasional aggressive behavior. Any advice would be appreciated.
Amy

Answer:
I just had a discussion about "play time" for dogs that are boarded with my vet this morning. They have have had several instances where people boarded their dogs at a facility that offers "play time" for the dogs, and when picking the dog up, they noticed bite marks on their pet when they got home. When they brought the dogs to the vet, the vet could easily see that the dogs had been bitten by another dog. The vet said to me ," Let's be realistic, if someone brings a dog into a facility that offers play time, their is no guarantee that their dog and the other dogs ( sometimes a dozen or more) are all going to get along. If 2 dogs start being aggresive towards each other, do you really expect some 100 pound teenager to get in the middle of it to break it up?"
I am boarding Smokey for the first time since I adopted her 3 months ago, in October. The Pethotel where I am boarding her offers "play time" as an option. I orginally said yes to that, but after my conversation with the vet today, I am going to ask for either separate playtime with just Smokey or just let her be by herself for a couple of days... Don't want to risk an injury while I am on a weekend vacation.

Answer:
Any idea if he progressively gets worse throughout the day, or if he is like that all day.
If it progressively gets worse he could just be getting "cranky". My dogs playing with each other eventually get time outs because the puppy will just keep pushing, when he shouldn't, and it irritates the older dogs.
It could also just be he doesn't like daycare. Not every dog will.
--Mia

Answer:
i would change daycares and see if it still goes on i find it weird her dogs are the same way
go to some training classes

Answer:
Any idea if he progressively gets worse throughout the day, or if he is like that all day.
If it progressively gets worse he could just be getting "cranky". My dogs playing with each other eventually get time outs because the puppy will just keep pushing, when he shouldn't, and it irritates the older dogs.
It could also just be he doesn't like daycare. Not every dog will.
--Mia
I understand that he is at his worst in the morning... In the afternoon he is much calmer.

Answer:
I just had a discussion about "play time" for dogs that are boarded with my vet this morning. They have have had several instances where people boarded their dogs at a facility that offers "play time" for the dogs, and when picking the dog up, they noticed bite marks on their pet when they got home. When they brought the dogs to the vet, the vet could easily see that the dogs had been bitten by another dog. The vet said to me ," Let's be realistic, if someone brings a dog into a facility that offers play time, their is no guarantee that their dog and the other dogs ( sometimes a dozen or more) are all going to get along. If 2 dogs start being aggresive towards each other, do you really expect some 100 pound teenager to get in the middle of it to break it up?"
I am boarding Smokey for the first time since I adopted her 3 months ago, in October. The Pethotel where I am boarding her offers "play time" as an option. I orginally said yes to that, but after my conversation with the vet today, I am going to ask for either separate playtime with just Smokey or just let her be by herself for a couple of days... Don't want to risk an injury while I am on a weekend vacation.
There are 4 people that work at this daycare center - all adults. The husband and wife are the main two employees. They are in their 40's and have been running this daycare for 10 years. The other two employees are also adults in their 40's that have been training and working with dogs for many years.
I can understand someone's apprehension about leaving their dog in a facility with an inexperienced teenager. But that really is not the case here. I would expect that all 4 employees are relatively knowledgeable and experienced when it comes to handling dogs...
The one thing that I do find quite odd is that she said she keeps her dogs out of daycare because they get aggressive with other dogs....

Answer:
there are many dogs that jsut don't want to be around other dogs that much. If I ran one I'd keep my dogs out to. I don't find that odd-probally jsut good that the people can recongnize a dog that wants to be there. the thing I would worry about is that it may be worse than they say because you pay them so they don't want to say he's too bad pull him out. He may jsut be being grumpy in the morning-do they have a private area for the first ocuple of hours?

Answer:
I understand that he is at his worst in the morning... In the afternoon he is much calmer.
Does he get exercised before going, or is his first real exercise of the day? I don't know it seems like he might just be getting overly excited by activity starting, like yeah I'm going to play, and gets overly pushy about it. Not sure how the water dish would fit in. Why would he have his own water dish at a daycare, aren't there communal dishes??
Also quoted from above::: I asked the daycare owner what she is doing about this. She indicated that they will correct him if he is playing too aggressively. I am not sure how they do that - without actually being out there with the dogs. She indicated that they will tell him "NO" when he starts acting aggressively.
Realistically at a daycare they SHOULD be out there with the dogs. That is what they're being paid to do.
If it were my dog I'd probably up my own exercise regime and cut back on daycare, as you don't want the issue to spill out to where he isn't having a problem. He's also reaching his really irritating teenage phase, even without the testosterone he can be very obnoxious.
--Mia

Answer:
i would change daycares and see if it still goes on i find it weird her dogs are the same way
go to some training classes
There really isn't another daycare facility that is even remotely convenient for us location-wise. We are currently in our 6th week of obedience class. We work with our dog every day for 20-40 minutes.
Getting kicked out of daycare would be a huge issue for us... We have him in daycare 3 days per week as we are not able to get home during those days to let him out of his crate.

Answer:
Does he get exercised before going, or is his first real exercise of the day? I don't know it seems like he might just be getting overly excited by activity starting, like yeah I'm going to play, and gets overly pushy about it. Not sure how the water dish would fit in. Why would he have his own water dish at a daycare, aren't there communal dishes??
Also quoted from above::: I asked the daycare owner what she is doing about this. She indicated that they will correct him if he is playing too aggressively. I am not sure how they do that - without actually being out there with the dogs. She indicated that they will tell him "NO" when he starts acting aggressively.
Realistically at a daycare they SHOULD be out there with the dogs. That is what they're being paid to do.
If it were my dog I'd probably up my own exercise regime and cut back on daycare, as you don't want the issue to spill out to where he isn't having a problem. He's also reaching his really irritating teenage phase, even without the testosterone he can be very obnoxious.
--Mia
He gets excercised before going to daycare. I just recently had a thread about excercise. Trust me when I say our boy was/is getting enough of it. Probably too much (we've cut back). You can read about it here:
http://www.chazhound.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35092
They are communal water dishes, but if he is at one, and someone comes near him, he will sometimes get aggressive towards them.
I know they should be out there with the dogs - but I don't think that they are. I think they sit in the room next to the "pen" and watch TV most of the day.
We have him at daycare 3 weekdays per week. The other 2 weekdays he spends in his crate all day. He is simply not ready to be left in the house by himself all day. We have him in daycare on those three days because it is not possible for us to get home and let him out during the day. We don't want him to be in a crate for 8.5 hours per day 5 days per week. So we send him to daycare 3 days per week.

Answer:
there are many dogs that jsut don't want to be around other dogs that much. If I ran one I'd keep my dogs out to. I don't find that odd-probally jsut good that the people can recongnize a dog that wants to be there. the thing I would worry about is that it may be worse than they say because you pay them so they don't want to say he's too bad pull him out. He may jsut be being grumpy in the morning-do they have a private area for the first ocuple of hours?
I don't find it odd that she keeps them out of daycare, I find it odd that she said all 3 of her dogs get aggressive towards strange dogs. You would think that someone that owns a daycare and trains dogs for a living would have dogs that are well socialized with both people and other dogs. That is what I find odd.
I am starting to get the very distinct feeling that they don't really want him there any longer. He has 1 strike. 3 strikes and he is out.

Answer:
I don't find it odd that she keeps them out of daycare, I find it odd that she said all 3 of her dogs get aggressive towards strange dogs. You would think that someone that owns a daycare and trains dogs for a living would have dogs that are well socialized with both people and other dogs. That is what I find odd.
I am starting to get the very distinct feeling that they don't really want him there any longer. He has 1 strike. 3 strikes and he is out.
Is it possible they didn't have their dogs when they where pups? They could be rescueing these dogs as older dog or older puppies where they where already had the dog-aggressive background. Or it could be their breed?
Either way, if you don't feel comfortable with this place you should try to find another one. One that you feel more comfortable with, just make sure it's a good one.

Answer:
I also work for a doggie boarding/daycare place and this is fairly common. The dogs aren't acting so much aggressive as possessive. We have a number of dogs that have "their" bed and or toy and are a loathe to let anyone else near them. Some dogs have a three foot "personal space" bubble around them at those times and will growl and snap at anyone who invades it. What I do, and many of my co-workers do, is remove the source of the problem, especially if it's over a toy. One snap will be tolerated, unless it's a very severe lunge. But after that the toy will be taken away and put up and the offending dog can go sulk in a corner if they're so inclined.
Teenage dogs seem to be the worst though; they're cocky and don't seem to think the rules apply to them. Sometimes it helps if there is a border-line alpha dog in the group that can lay down the law; not to the point of injury, but a properly placed doggie correction does a lot more than most human interference. Dogs also play with their mouths, so even if your dog does go home with some scratches, that does not mean it was in a fight or getting beat up on. I find stuff on Sawyer all the time, but I know he has fun and is getting them through wrestling.
Many people who own their own place do not put their dogs in daycare for the same reason: possessiveness. The owner has a certain air about them that lets everyone know that it's their place, and the dogs follow suit. It becomes a territorial issues. My dogs are occassionaly put into time out because they try to run the daycare too much. They're allowed to referee a bit, but only to a certain degree.
If a daycare is worth it's salt, they'd better have people right in the middle of those daycare groups. I am, and I can't tell you how many times I've jumped in between a couple of dogs who were getting ready to start something, or had just started to clash. I've body slammed a St. Bernard who was trying to get his mouth around another dog's head and I'm slightly over 100 pounds myself.

Answer:
Is it possible they didn't have their dogs when they where pups? They could be rescueing these dogs as older dog or older puppies where they where already had the dog-aggressive background. Or it could be their breed?
Either way, if you don't feel comfortable with this place you should try to find another one. One that you feel more comfortable with, just make sure it's a good one.
I guess that could be very possible... I did not think of that.

Answer:
I also work for a doggie boarding/daycare place and this is fairly common. The dogs aren't acting so much aggressive as possessive. We have a number of dogs that have "their" bed and or toy and are a loathe to let anyone else near them. Some dogs have a three foot "personal space" bubble around them at those times and will growl and snap at anyone who invades it. What I do, and many of my co-workers do, is remove the source of the problem, especially if it's over a toy. One snap will be tolerated, unless it's a very severe lunge. But after that the toy will be taken away and put up and the offending dog can go sulk in a corner if they're so inclined.
Teenage dogs seem to be the worst though; they're cocky and don't seem to think the rules apply to them. Sometimes it helps if there is a border-line alpha dog in the group that can lay down the law; not to the point of injury, but a properly placed doggie correction does a lot more than most human interference. Dogs also play with their mouths, so even if your dog does go home with some scratches, that does not mean it was in a fight or getting beat up on. I find stuff on Sawyer all the time, but I know he has fun and is getting them through wrestling.
Many people who own their own place do not put their dogs in daycare for the same reason: possessiveness. The owner has a certain air about them that lets everyone know that it's their place, and the dogs follow suit. It becomes a territorial issues. My dogs are occassionaly put into time out because they try to run the daycare too much. They're allowed to referee a bit, but only to a certain degree.
If a daycare is worth it's salt, they'd better have people right in the middle of those daycare groups. I am, and I can't tell you how many times I've jumped in between a couple of dogs who were getting ready to start something, or had just started to clash. I've body slammed a St. Bernard who was trying to get his mouth around another dog's head and I'm slightly over 100 pounds myself.
The thing of it is.... our 10 month old little guy is the borderline alpha-dog. Other dogs (older, bigger), have tried to correct him, but he immediately gives it right back and has made several of the other dogs back down.
The daycare owner was really shocked that such a young dog was getting older and bigger dogs to back down from him.
He has yet to be corrected by another dog where the correction actually stopped him from what he was doing. If another dog tries to correct him, he just magnifies his aggression 100 fold.

Answer:
some dogs just aren't cut out for doggy daycare. both of my dogs are aggressive toward certain other dogs. putting them in a big group of not-very-well supervised dogs would be a disaster.
maybe hiring a dog-walker to come on those days would be a better option?

Answer:
I know they should be out there with the dogs - but I don't think that they are. I think they sit in the room next to the "pen" and watch TV most of the day.
We have him at daycare 3 weekdays per week. The other 2 weekdays he spends in his crate all day. He is simply not ready to be left in the house by himself all day. We have him in daycare on those three days because it is not possible for us to get home and let him out during the day. We don't want him to be in a crate for 8.5 hours per day 5 days per week. So we send him to daycare 3 days per week.
With my dogs once they were housebroken they were no longer crated during the day. They are confined to the kitchen, with safe toys and some space (and once the puppy stops chewing on the hardwood floor they will both be loose again.) Even if he isn't ready for the rest of the house, he could be ready for a dog safe room. 8.5 hours at 10 months should be fine, depending a bit on feeding schedule and the specific dog. I have a 3 yr old pointer mix and a 6 month old aussie who spend between 7 and 8.5 hours in my kitchen every weekday. Some days they get taken out by my father, but not all days. I haven't had a problem, except for that one ripped up linoleum tile.
As to them not being in there with the dogs that would be a no-go for me. I feel I shouldn't be paying for largely unsupervised play, I'd rather my dog was crated. If a real fight broke out how long would it take for them to react.
If the choice comes down to letting him be aggressive in a daycare, and it possibly bleeding over to other instances, or spending all day confined, I'd end up going the crate route.
--Mia

Answer:
You may want to look into either a trainer or a behaviorist in your area then.
Not saying your dog will fit this, but both hounds and Dals usually bear closer watching in daycare. Maybe it's just the ones we get, I don't know, but something about them makes for a harder day. It also sounds like the people in charge, depsite the 10 years, may not particularly know how to be the head of the group, only how to give strikes and kick out.

Answer:
With my dogs once they were housebroken they were no longer crated during the day. They are confined to the kitchen, with safe toys and some space (and once the puppy stops chewing on the hardwood floor they will both be loose again.) Even if he isn't ready for the rest of the house, he could be ready for a dog safe room. 8.5 hours at 10 months should be fine, depending a bit on feeding schedule and the specific dog. I have a 3 yr old pointer mix and a 6 month old aussie who spend between 7 and 8.5 hours in my kitchen every weekday. Some days they get taken out by my father, but not all days. I haven't had a problem, except for that one ripped up linoleum tile.
As to them not being in there with the dogs that would be a no-go for me. I feel I shouldn't be paying for largely unsupervised play, I'd rather my dog was crated. If a real fight broke out how long would it take for them to react.
If the choice comes down to letting him be aggressive in a daycare, and it possibly bleeding over to other instances, or spending all day confined, I'd end up going the crate route.
--Mia
Thanks for your info... We have an extremely open floor plan and setting up a dog safe room is really not a viable option. :(
What would your suggestion be regarding how to go about finding out if they are out there with the dogs the majority of the time? If I just come out and ask them, of course they are going to say they are usually out there.
Every time I have come to pick him up however, they are behind the desk in the little office next to the area where all the dogs are kept.

Answer:
Thanks for your info... We have an extremely open floor plan and setting up a dog safe room is really not a viable option. :(
What would your suggestion be regarding how to go about finding out if they are out there with the dogs the majority of the time? If I just come out and ask them, of course they are going to say they are usually out there.
Every time I have come to pick him up however, they are behind the desk in the little office next to the area where all the dogs are kept.
I hope they can at least see the dogs from the office. :(
If there is no one with the dogs any of the times you've dropped off or picked up I expect they aren't out there much at all. There should be at least one person out with the dogs at ALL times, not just when people are not picking up/dropping off. Meaning one person mans the desk and a second person should be managing the dogs. At the very least they should be in with the dogs when you arrive, and only come out to deal with you. If you've met any other dog owners there you could ask if they've ever seen people with the dogs, they might have different schedules than you.
Any large bathrooms? Those can sometimes work as alternatives to crates.
--Mia

Answer:
I would find a different daycare or even a dogwalker then. A place that does not have a competent physical presence in with the dogs at all times is not a place I would take my dogs too.
Ask around your area and see if people are interested in setting up a rotating play group or something similar? What state are you in, by the way?

Answer:
I hope they can at least see the dogs from the office. :(
If there is no one with the dogs any of the times you've dropped off or picked up I expect they aren't out there much at all. There should be at least one person out with the dogs at ALL times, not just when people are not picking up/dropping off. Meaning one person mans the desk and a second person should be managing the dogs. At the very least they should be in with the dogs when you arrive, and only come out to deal with you. If you've met any other dog owners there you could ask if they've ever seen people with the dogs, they might have different schedules than you.
Any large bathrooms? Those can sometimes work as alternatives to crates.
--Mia
Yes - they can see the dogs from the office. If they have to go in there, they are about 4 steps away from getting inside.
I really don't think they are in there with the dogs that much. I don't know for sure, but that is my feeling. The only way to know for certain would be to randomly drop by at different times throughout the day. Unfortunately, that is really not an option.

Answer:
I would find a different daycare or even a dogwalker then. A place that does not have a competent physical presence in with the dogs at all times is not a place I would take my dogs too.
Ask around your area and see if people are interested in setting up a rotating play group or something similar? What state are you in, by the way?
Dogwalkers are outrageously expensive. 16-18 dollars for a 20-30 minute visit!!! I am in Western New York (Buffalo area).

Answer:
How much does daycare cost? Where I am it runs $25-$40 a day.
--Mia

Answer:
How much does daycare cost? Where I am it runs $25-$40 a day.
--Mia
Daycare is $16-$24 per day around here. If I am going to pay $17 for someone to come to my house for 20 minutes to let our dog out, I would much rather pay $20 for a full day of daycare.

Answer:
Dog walkers here range from $14-$20, but they average 15 minutes.
It might end up being quality vs quantity.
If he isn't actually being watched at daycare, it isn't working well anyway. :(
If you found a walker who played with him for a solid 20 minutes it might be better than 8 hours of unsupervised play that is getting him in trouble. The longer he goes repeating the aggressiveness the harder it will be to change.
This is why I try to guilt extended family into letting my dogs out, they're cheaper in the long run.:p
--Mia

Answer:
Daycare is $16-$24 per day around here. If I am going to pay $17 for someone to come to my house for 20 minutes to let our dog out, I would much rather pay $20 for a full day of daycare.
I have to agree with mwood! I'd rather pay someone for 20 mins of contructive walking than pay for a whole day of what is possibly dangerous and bad habit forming "Play".
Is there not an elderly person in your area you could ask to watch your dog during the day that would be glad of the company and a few $?? Maybe you could put an advert in the local paper?? Maybe a stay at home mom or something????

Answer:
've body slammed a St. Bernard who was trying to get his mouth around another dog's head and I'm slightly over 100 pounds myself.
Gee, I wouldn't pick a fight with you.......;)

Answer:
Dog walkers here range from $14-$20, but they average 15 minutes.
It might end up being quality vs quantity.
If he isn't actually being watched at daycare, it isn't working well anyway. :(
If you found a walker who played with him for a solid 20 minutes it might be better than 8 hours of unsupervised play that is getting him in trouble. The longer he goes repeating the aggressiveness the harder it will be to change.
This is why I try to guilt extended family into letting my dogs out, they're cheaper in the long run.:p
--Mia
So I show up a bit early on Wednesday afternoon and of course nobody is actually in with the dogs. I pick up our boy and load him into the back seat of the car. We get about 2 minutes away from the facility and he pukes up a big pile of dog poop onto my backseat!
I know this is a somewhat common thing in dogs - but I have never once seen him try to eat his own poop. We take him out on a leash to his potty spot every time - so I know with 100% certainty he has never tried to eat his own poop on his potty spot at the house.
He probably ate the poop of another dog. I am guessing the reason he ate this poop is that he was unsupervised. That is not seeming to be acceptable to me. Am I off base on this?? I think I need to explore other options....

Answer:
Yeah, it's a dog thing, but totally unacceptable when you're paying someone to watch the dog. If they aren't watching them closely enough to see one went and your dog had enough time to eat it then they aren't worth paying. And if they did see him eat it, they should have told you about it. :mad:
At least it's slightly better than my wake up call, hopefully andy effects won't last long. Toka came back from one boarding limping, and I discovered that her feet and elbows had burns from lying unsupervised outside on hot cement. It took six months for the fur on her elbows to grow back, and about 4 days for her poor feet to heal. :( Can you tell she hasn't been back to that place.
--Mia